Coronavirus - those in China, and general discussion

[Flickserve]

7 hours ago, Tomsima said:

Also, can I thank you in particular for your level-headed advice, your experience and calm manner made all the difference when we were stuck indoors in the cycle of taking it in turns to read out to each other the next shocking 'fact' about the outbreak to each other

 

You referring to me?

 

Did I really help. If so, glad it did so. I also studied epidemiology and public health at postgraduate which helps quite a bit filtering through the mass of information that comes out.

[StChris]

10 hours ago, Flickserve said:

Pens are also vectors of disease.

 

 With some types of food beginning to run low, I left the apartment for the first time in days this afternoon. Whenever you enter or leave the apartment complex there is a security guard who registers your name, address and telephone number. People do the usual thing of describing the exact characters that make up their name (祥瑞的瑞 etc), but being older gentlemen the security guards often don't know how to write them, so it seems that they mostly just ask people to write their details into the log themselves. I tried to keep my gloves on while jotting down mine, but it turns out that it's pretty difficult to write Chinese while wearing thick woollen gloves and also while trying to balance a clipboard on the edge of a metal railing. I ended up removing my gloves, and needless to say that I thoroughly disinfected my hands as soon as I got home. I hope others are doing the same, as everyone using the same pen can't be good for limiting cross-infection.

 

Speaking of disinfectant, our 物业 distributed bottles to everyone last week. Someone knocked on my door while I was in the middle of taking a lesson over Wechat, and I was a little taken aback when the lady at the door quickly shoved a bottle of clear liquid into my hands and left without saying a word. You don't get many people knocking on your door in China and my mind was still on the lesson. For a few seconds I thought that the lady was a neighbour and the clear liquid was a bottle of baijiu that she was giving me as a late New Year gift. It was only when I noticed the 75% alcohol content that I got a clue that it wasn't for drinking.

 

. 

 

They also left left some masks outside of everyone's door, so they are taking good care of us. Less fortunate are the people in the two buildings which have been completely sealed off for 14 days. Apparently, a lady returned to our apartment complex after a trip to Wuhan in late January. Unbeknown to her, she had contracted the virus and subsequently infected her adult son, who has an apartment in a different building within the same complex. Since they were confirmed as having contracted the virus last week, the two buildings have been completely sealed off, and no one is allowed to enter or leave. One of the victims lived in the same building (栋) as me, but fortunately their apartment was located in a different unit (单元 - technically the same building but different entrance, elevators etc), so I'm still free to come and leave as I wish. For the unlucky people in the quarantined 单元, they have to order supplies via the 物业. The mother and son are both in hospital, but I guess they aren't taking any risks and have decided to keep everyone they shared an entrance and lift with under lock and key. I took a look at one of the sealed properties on my way back from the supermarket and I half expected to be met with a sealed metal barrier and maybe even a soldier with a gun guarding the entrance, but all I could see from the outside was some thin barrier tape and some signs on the door:

 

 

The red sign says “新型冠状病毒感染感染的肺炎  确诊病例封闭单元”. While I feel lucky now, I realise that it only takes a single instance of infection from within my unit, and then I will be a prisoner in my own apartment for the next 2 weeks.

[StChris]

It felt great to leave my apartment, have a walk around and breathe some fresh air after almost a week of being stuck inside. The air is noticeably fresher than usual without all the cars, and without the usual background noise of traffic and people I even managed to hear some birdsong while walking back to my apartment. The general experience of being outside, listening to the birds sing, letting the sun shine on my face and breathing in the crisp, cold air was so nice that I decided it was worth risking staying outside for a little while so that I could enjoy it for a few minutes longer.    

 

I had a funny interaction with the 保安 on the way out. As I was filling in my details, I thought he asked me about my 属性. I usually come across that word when using my computer (file "properties" etc), so I was a bit confused, and thought that maybe it was being used in regards to my status or something. A couple of sentences later and I realised he was asking about my 属相 (Chinese Zodiac) and whether or not we had this concept in my country. He then asked “你们是不是都很有钱？”  followed by some comments about the strength of the mighty  英镑 (he doesn't seem to have been following the news these past 3 and a half years). I'm sure most people here have had similar conversations countless times before, and it can be a little boring to go through the same old routine, by today it felt different. With all the virus stuff turning everything upside down, it was oddly reassuring to be having one of those typical foreigner/old curious Chinese man interactions.

 

Here's one of the temperature checking stations that have become a regular part of day to day life in China (taken at a shopping mall):

 

 

Now for a little about Wechat. The screenshots below are from a popular 公众号. It basically tells you how many newly confirmed infections there have been in the city that day and who the infected are. They give a surprisingly large amount of info about each case, including the person's occupation, address, etc. The thing that seems of most interest to people is each infected person's 活动轨迹 (basically their movements before being admitted to hospital), which is set out in remarkable detail. My teacher was particularly worried when she saw that one of the infected people had eaten at a certain market on the same day she had went there with her family. You'll notice that many of the recent descriptions state 无武汉出游史, meaning they contracted the virus in Harbin, not Wuhan. There is even a map showing infected locations relative to yourself, if you really feel like scaring the bejesus out of yourself (I'm not quite surrounded by red infection marks just yet!) :

 

      

 

I know many suspect the official figures, but in Harbin at least, things appear to be being handled with great deal of transparency. We're down to 10-20 new confirmed cases per day here, and many seem to be appearing in clusters. Today especially, many of the new infections appear to have resulted from people ignoring official advice and still getting together with extended family and friends, much to the consternation of many:

 

   

 

The few business that remain open are trying to adapt tot he situation, as this 无接触 pizza delivery service from Pizza Hut shows. I take it that they just drop off the pizza at the entrance to your 小区. I wonder if picking up a pizza means having to use one of your exit passes?

 

 

And finally, some light-hearted humour from my 朋友圈:

 

   

[Dawei3]

On 2/8/2020 at 9:40 AM, Ruben von Zwack said:

omnipresent bigotry towards Chinese

in the US seems to be mainly by Chinese themselves.  2 US-based Chinese professional organizations I'm involved with cancelled dinners 3 weeks ago and 2 weeks ago.   These dinners were in the US (if Americans had done so, they would have been labeled as racist).  US-based Chinese have told me they won't go to Chinese restaurants or stores (I've heard no Americans say this, although I expect many may feel this way too).  Also, I believe Hong Kong is the only country with healthcare workers striking over permissive rules in letting in people from the mainland.  

 

The point is that I don't think it's racism that is driving people's action.  The HKers feelings are understandable - as are others - it's an uncertain situation that scares people.  

 

It is unfortunate, but most cases are originating from China and caution is appropriate.  Philadelphia just announced 7 cases.  6 had had contact with a visitor from Shanghai.  There will likely be many more cases like this scattered around the globe.     

 

There are some disturbing ones as well. Over the weekend, 5 Britons were found to have acquired the virus at a ski resort in France while they met with another Briton who had visited Singapore.   https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/08/who-cautions-coronavirus-transmission-could-increase-beyond-china/    I wonder how many of these indirect situations will occur. 

 

In terms of age of those most effected, data on large #s of people are unavailable.  A 29 Jan study in the NEJM found that the median age of infection was 59 for the 425 first cases of the disease.  While this could mean that older people become infected more easily, it could also mean that older people were in situations in which they got infected (i.e., visiting the market & in settings with lots of other adults).  In addition, with these data, you'd expect at least 50% of the deaths to be in those above 59 years gold.  We need to see data from more cases to more fully understand the clinical course of the disease.      

 

On 2/7/2020 at 9:02 PM, Jim said:

so repeated/ongoing exposure puts you at risk of a much more serious infection.

Yes and no.  You need a certain (unknown) level of exposure to become infected.  However, once you have the disease, it is self-sustaining until your immune system overcomes it.  A 2nd exposure once you have the disease is unlikely to effect the course of the disease.  

 

 

[suMMit]

@Tomsima I realise you went from that small city to the airport and not a tour of wuhan. But, from what you saw on your way out , how bad do you think it might  be in Wuhan or in Hubei? Did you get the feeling it was worse than what we know? Your description of the hospital scene sounds like it is.

 

Im glad you got out safely.

 

An American colleague of mine was sucessfully evacuated with his young child a few days ago. His wife was unfortunately not elegible. She stayed behind in Wuhan 市 with her father. Her father died yesterday of the virus. He's working with the state dept to try and get her out, but for now she is in Wuhan alone. It doesnt get much more heart wrenching.

[ChTTay]

10 hours ago, StChris said:

It felt great to leave my apartment, have a walk around and breathe some fresh air after almost a week of being stuck inside.

I go for a walk every day otherwise I go crazy. Where I live is sparsely populated by Chinese standards so some days I barely see anyone. I don’t know how people I know stay inside for several days. I don’t think they even exercise inside. 

[roddy]

@js6426 are you still in Harbin? How are you getting on?

[js6426]

1 hour ago, roddy said:

@js6426 are you still in Harbin? How are you getting on?

 

No, we are in Cambodia at the moment.  We were supposed to head back around the 22nd, which was when uni starts up again.  However, HIT have now said that the earliest they will restart is March 1, but we are to wait for a further announcement before heading back.  Initially we were told that we weren't allowed to return to the campus before they gave us a solid date, but the last selection of info they sent us (along with a commitment we had to sign) said that we are not even allowed to return to China before the date they will give us.  Thankfully we got close to a full refund for our flights, so we are just enjoying a slightly extended holiday with friends and family here. 

 

Judging by what I have been reading in this thread and have heard from other friends up in Harbin, it wouldn't surprise me if we end up being here quite a bit longer than an extra week!  So far Cambodia only has one case, although I find that really hard to believe.  The health minister here has reassured everyone that the virus won't spread, because the country is too hot and will kill the virus.  It's remarkable really, especially in light of the fact that the human body is hotter than Cambodia...  If/when it does spread here, I imagine we might actually be safer in China, as the healthcare system here has absolutely no way of coping with coronavirus. 

[zander1]

Delete.

Edited February 11, 2020 at 03:14 PM by zander1

[Shelley]

I am putting this here as I think it comes under the section general discussion.

 

Today whilst out shopping, came across my first face mask wearing person, yes she was chinese, one of our many students at the university I am guessing. 

The thing was the way she was wearing it was more of a fashion accessory than to prevent contamination. It was just a regular mask, not the recommended N95 version. Her nose was completely out of the mask and it was so loose round her mouth we could see her lips move as she chatted on her hands free.

 

I am sort of used to seeing this when being used against pollution but not something serious like disease. I wondered what was the point and did she actually even care?

Is it merely paying lip service to be seen to be conforming or did she just not realise the mistake she was making?

Edited February 11, 2020 at 06:34 PM by Shelley
Typo

[Balthazar]

8 minutes ago, Shelley said:

It was just a regular mask, not the recommended N65 version. Her nose was completely out of the mask and it was so loose round her mouth we could see her lips move as she chatted on her hands free.

 

I am sort of used to seeing this when being used against pollution but not something serious like disease. I wondered what was the point and did she actually even care?

 

N95.

 

Lots of people don't know how to fit the masks properly (even the "normal", surgical ones). At the airport in Shanghai I saw several people that didn't cover their nose (and some who kept lifting the mask to scratch their nose and other areas of the face).

 

This is one of the reasons the WHO as well as many national governments recommend that those who aren't infected don't wear masks.

[Shelley]

@Balthazar Oh thanks for the correction, a typo will correct.

[Tomsima]

On 2/9/2020 at 10:14 PM, Shelley said:

Did you get taken to Milton Keynes?

 

Yes, that was us on the news, we are now in the milton keynes quarantine facility. Still not allowed out of our rooms, test results for the virus have apparently delayed until tomorrow. Still, its fairly nice here, and almost certainly miles better than any of the quarantine centres back in Hubei right now, so we're happy to slowly count down the days until the end of our two weeks.

[Tomsima]

On 2/9/2020 at 7:21 PM, 889 said:

Did you have any sense that other countries were making similar out-reach efforts?

 

Didnt come across any Americans, but there was a big Australian effort going on, flying to Darwin I think it was. Here was the sign for information on the flight:

[Flickserve]

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3050354/coronavirus-hubei-province-reports-sharp-spike-new-confirmed
 

big jump in confirmed diagnosis of cases of nearly 15 000 yesterday. 
 

Not really surprised though. What I would be interested in are the trends in numbers from other provinces.

 

From today’s BBC report, a lot of the rise might be due to the definition of disease. 

 

Hubei has started using a broader definition to diagnose people - which accounts for much of the rise in cases.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51482994

[Flickserve]

On 2/11/2020 at 10:17 PM, js6426 said:

Judging by what I have been reading in this thread and have heard from other friends up in Harbin, it wouldn't surprise me if we end up being here quite a bit longer than an extra week!

how long does your visa last for?

[suMMit]

Maybe the big jump / changing the way of counting has something to do with the WHO being in town

[js6426]

1 hour ago, Flickserve said:

On 2/11/2020 at 10:17 PM, js6426 said:

Judging by what I have been reading in this thread and have heard from other friends up in Harbin, it wouldn't surprise me if we end up being here quite a bit longer than an extra week!

how long does your visa last for?

 

My visa for Cambodia runs out on March 11, but I can just do a border run and get another tourist visa.  The border crossing I would use to do that is only a couple of hours away, so not a huge deal.  In theory I can then extend that visa for a further month, although they might give me a bit of hassle about it as that will be 4 months on a tourist visa! 

[dtcamero]

12 minutes ago, js6426 said:

although they might give me a bit of hassle about it as that will be 4 months on a tourist visa!

 

i used to do this all the time in japan, after about the 5th time i got lectured by a border agent about how i needed to get a more appropriate visa, but i’m sure you’ll be fine just doing it once.

[js6426]

2 hours ago, dtcamero said:

3 hours ago, js6426 said:

although they might give me a bit of hassle about it as that will be 4 months on a tourist visa!

 

i used to do this all the time in japan, after about the 5th time i got lectured by a border agent about how i needed to get a more appropriate visa, but i’m sure you’ll be fine just doing it once.

Yeah theoretically it should be ok, it's just that they have revamped the visa situation here recently and they are cracking down on this sort of thing.  A few years back it wouldn't have been an issue at all!