Coronavirus - those in China, and general discussion

[Flickserve]

1 hour ago, Lu said:

 

The West won't cancel soccer games.

 

Italy going into lockdown means cancellations.

 

Have to give credit to Italy after botching the initial quarantine

[杰.克]

I have to say, i think its possible China will come out of this well. If it contains the virus, and it ends up hitting western nations worse, perhaps western governments will look on the 'Big government system' as having benefits in situations like these. Will give good arguments to counter people that complain about the nanny state, or less government being a better thing.

[Flickserve]

With the lockdown, China created a new precedent and new evidence in the control of an epidemic. 

 

It will be looked upon as the gold standard of epidemic prevention by the whole world. The slow, disjointed and inadequate response by other countries when they had time to prepare will also be greatly scrutinised. This will become basic fodder in medical education for decades. 

[ChTTay]

Italy has cancelled all soccer games and , I think, sporting events in general. 

Back to China... 

Interestingly, despite low to no new cases here in Beijing...recently things have gotten stricter out and about. I could walk into a clothes shop a few weeks to a month ago and there was no kind of control (I was temp. Checked on the way in to the overall complex). Now I am temp checked again at the store entrance, have to sign in AND in some stores scan a QR code. We weren’t sure about the QR code. It seemed to just be an electronic way to log our having entered the store.We were just there out of boredom really but you end up constantly being temp checked as you walk  around and go in places. I also need to start bringing a pen out with me so as not to use the one they have for sign in that everyone touches. 

 

McDonalds was working 100% as normal throughout the peak virus period in terms of ordering and eating (of course more cleaning, wearing masks etc). However, now you can only order with your phone and all orders are take away. 
 

[889]

"I have to say, i think it's possible China will come out of this well."

 

This of course is the Chinese propaganda spin.

 

It's All the Foreigners' Fault

 

Conveniently forgetting how the entire world ended up in this disaster after a Wuhan doctor was charged by police in December with "spreading false rumours" after he tried to alert colleagues of the risk posed by the new virus.

 

And let us not forget that all those restrictions on news dissemination make knowing the true situation in China impossible.

 

The Great Leap Forward was hailed as quite a success in its time, remember.

[889]

Regarding the QR code at supermarkets and such, I think in some areas stores are required to log shoppers to limit those in the store. Did you also have to scan a code exiting?

[StChris]

2 hours ago, ChTTay said:

Now I am temp checked again at the store entrance

 

Are many normal (i.e. on-food) shops open in Beijing now then? Also, when you scan the barcode, does it accept your passport number in place of a Chinese ID number? My passport number always gets rejected in Harbin and I have to join the old ladies in the pen and paper queue.

[ChTTay]

Most major clothing stores didn’t really close. Perhaps a week or two. Larger restaurants the same. Western restaurant chains mostly stayed open the whole time. Starbucks closed for a week or two but I found one branch that just opened anyway unofficially. Smaller places all closed but some are now opening again. However, most are take away only and you cannot even go inside. Many smaller F&B places make a little barrier at their door where you pick up your stuff. Some make you use an APP to order. Otherwise you order at the table then wait on the street. Ive added a photo as an example. It’s luckin coffee. 
 

The APP I scanned (mentioned above) literally just asked me to allow my wechat data to be used to sign in and that’s it. No passport or info given. 
 

Otherwise most places use pen and paper sign in. Even places with the above APP require pen and paper sign in.

 

 

56 minutes ago, 889 said:

Regarding the QR code at supermarkets and such, I think in some areas stores are required to log shoppers to limit those in the store. Did you also have to scan a code exiting?

Most are pen and paper. Some don’t make you do it but they do have a list of names there ready in case someone looks if they’re doing it. 

[StChris]

2 hours ago, ChTTay said:

Most major clothing stores didn’t really close. Perhaps a week or two. Larger restaurants the same. Western restaurant chains mostly stayed open the whole time. Starbucks closed for a week or two but I found one branch that just opened anyway unofficially. Smaller places all closed but some are now opening again. However, most are take away only and you cannot even go inside. Many smaller F&B places make a little barrier at their door where you pick up your stuff. Some make you use an APP to order. Otherwise you order at the table then wait on the street. Ive added a photo as an example. It’s luckin coffee. 

 

It sounds like Beijing stayed relatively open compared to Harbin. They have started to open up some districts here, so hopefully I'll be able to spend more time outside soon. I'm really looing forward to sitting down in a coffee shop.

 

Speaking of coffee, Luckin have been advertising pretty heavily here in Harbin. I wonder whether this virus has been a boost or a hinderence for them. I'm guessing most of their normal deliveries are to offices.Most people stuck at home will probably just make their own,

[Flickserve]

@Tomsima

 

I am following some UK social media and some people are absolutely flabbergasted that the UK government is not proactive in doing more, especially with large scale events.

 

@abcdefg

 

What's your plan going forward?

[Ruben von Zwack]

This Correie della sera article is shared on social media, but I don't speak Italian unfortunately.

It is an interview with an anesthesiologist, a Dr. Christian Salaroli, in Bergamo.
I am relying on someone else's German translation. My summary:
This anesthesiologist seems to be saying that the situation is so bad in Italy, as they don't have enough intubation machines, they need to look at people and make an instant decision whom to save; and don't even try with seniors or young people who have an additional medical condition. This seems to be very hard on the medical staff.
He sees people strolling the streets as if everything were normal, he thinks they are clueless. He says the quarantine should have been implemented 2 weeks earlier.
The interviewer asks him, if you have something else, do you still have the right to a medical treatment? and the anesthesiologist replies that if you call in with a heart attack, the response time used to be a few minutes but now it is more than an hour.

[abcdefg]

12 hours ago, Flickserve said:

abcdefg -- What's your plan going forward?

 

Thanks for asking. I have purchased a plane ticket back to Kunming for the middle of April. It's a fare category that allows changes of date with no penalty. I've spoken with my Kunming landlord to let her know the timing of my intended arrival. My apartment is now sitting there unoccupied, just storing my stuff. I like living in Kunming and very much hope to return. 

 

However, the arrangements are all subject to change and I will need to remain flexible. It would be ironic if the US, currently kind of lackadaisacal and casual about the epidemic as far as I can tell, gets hit hard in the next month and becomes the new "hot spot." In that case I might be tossed into quarantine on arrival because I am coming from such a dangerous place! 

[matteo]

24 minutes ago, Ruben von Zwack said:

This Correie della sera article is shared on social media, but I don't speak Italian unfortunately.

It is an interview with an anesthesiologist, a Dr. Christian Salaroli, in Bergamo.
I am relying on someone else's German translation. My summary:
This anesthesiologist seems to be saying that the situation is so bad in Italy, as they don't have enough intubation machines, they need to look at people and make an instant decision whom to save; and don't even try with seniors or young people who have an additional medical condition. This seems to be very hard on the medical staff.
He sees people strolling the streets as if everything were normal, he thinks they are clueless. He says the quarantine should have been implemented 2 weeks earlier.
The interviewer asks him, if you have something else, do you still have the right to a medical treatment? and the anesthesiologist replies that if you call in with a heart attack, the response time used to be a few minutes but now it is more than an hour.

 

What you say is mainly correct, and the situation in Italy is not easy at the moment. The interview is with a anesthetist working in one of the hospitals in Northern Italy closest to a cluster of infections and therefore one of those that have been hit the worst.

 

As far as I understand, roughly 10% of those who fall sick need intensive care, and obviously there is a shortage (note, healthcare in Italy is public and free). The doctor says that they cannot treat everybody and that "we are not in a position to try and work miracles". As an example he mentions that, if someone older than 80 with a serious respiratory condition goes to the hospital chances are that they will not try to save him, because the probability for him to recover are extremely low and they don't have enough resources to try the impossible.   

 

Doctors are working multiple shifts round the clock and they have to make these choices, and it is taking a toll on them. As a consequence the health system as a whole is under strain and there are delays everywhere.

 

He then goes on saying that the best prevention against being infected is just to stay home, and he urges people not to go out. He says that he still sees too many people walking on the streets.

 

He mentions in passing that he agrees with the measures taken by the government, although possibly it would've been better if they did so a week or so earlier.

 

 

 

 

I'm getting news from my family and friends who all live in Lombardia (the epicenter of the infection): the whole region is being completely locked down for at least 14 days with only the most critical services remaining operative. The feeling I get at the moment is nervousness and fear, but not panic. People are really worried that shutting down shops and commercial activities will be economically unsustainable, many small companies will probably go belly up.

The country has been taken by surprise for sure, but the government seems to be reacting better than expected. Let's hope for the best.

 

 

[murrayjames]

17 hours ago, StChris said:

Speaking of coffee, Luckin have been advertising pretty heavily here in Harbin. I wonder whether this virus has been a boost or a hinderence for them. I'm guessing most of their normal deliveries are to offices.

 

In Shanghai, I have seen plenty of coffee buyers at Luckin, Starbucks, and local stores the last few months. To-go and delivery service has not stopped. These days business is picking up, now that people are returning to work.

 

My family has done the self-quarantine and is taking all recommended precautions. While we have coffee-making paraphernalia at home, lately I go outside and buy a cup every day. I like the fresh air, the sunlight, and seeing other people. I also need a break from sitting in a bedroom in relative isolation working on a laptop all day.

[Flickserve]

38 minutes ago, matteo said:

The feeling I get at the moment is nervousness and fear, but not panic.

this is the right balance.
 

Hopefully other countries are learning... but some are not....

 

The trouble here is when you wait for evidence, the decision based on that evidence is seven days too late. 

[Dawei3]

2 hours ago, Ruben von Zwack said:

response time used to be a few minutes but now it is more than an hour.

This will be a problem in many countries, i.e., overloaded medical services.  Even during a non-pandemic, I had wait over 5 1/2 hours to be admitted to a US emergency room.  They were so full, they ended up putting me in the hallway.  This was in a suburban reasonably well-off area in the US.  

 

In the morning, I've been listening to coronavirus updates from RTE Radio in Ireland.  The head of the Irish nursing association  noted that the entire country has only 250 isolation units and these are currently filled with people who have drug resistant bacteria.  They wouldn't kick them out of the room to handle flu cases.  It poses a real problem.  A recent podcast mentioned one good idea:  when going to see a Doctor, patients wait in their cars until called.  That way they don't sit in the waiting room, infecting others or being infected by them.

 

I wish the US would follow the lead of South Korea and let people be tested for the virus while sitting in their car.  It's such a smart, efficient thing to do.  

 

 

[Tomsima]

Thankfully both my wife and I can work remotely, so we've basically stayed at home and only been out a few times since we got back from isolation. We went into central London two days ago and took the tube in. we both wore facemasks and brought soap with us. We took the subway for a few stops, which we regretted immediately as it was absolutely rammed and no facemasks anywhere. Im not saying facemasks are a must at all, but youd expect people to at least make some airs to show care is being taken. but its still business as usual here. Meanwhile italy is exploding with new cases right now, with some people saying its a more agressive form of the virus there. Its like noones doing anything preventative (besides buying toilet paper in bulk…) because it would be 'emabarassing' or just a hassle. so now we're just sitting here waiting for quarantine round two, uk edition…

[Ruben von Zwack]

Same in Germany. We are in the center of Munich, and host large numbers of people, participants and clients, in our offices on a regular evening like yesterday.
Don't think we'd wipe the door handles with sanitizer or anything! Or that the toilet is cleaned more often than once a day. Nothing.
Ironically, this is the type of middle class people who can't sleep at night for fear of air pollution by Diesel cars, and of artificial ingredients in their food.

[Shelley]

I think the UK has to balance things very carefully. Having said that I also heard that one course of action considered was just to let the virus run its course, use crisis control to deal with things as they come and when the virus has run its course just get on with things. The thinking was this would be cheaper.

Thankfully this idea seems to have been dismissed.

 

The budget was today with lots of coronavirus concessions and benefits. Mostly I think to encourage people to self isolate, and not encourage businesses to stay open just to pay bills.

 

Things round here seem pretty much normal except for the fact the shops are sold out of the oddest combination of things, empty shelves of toilet paper, kitchen roll, baked beans, vegetable oil, bread and eggs.

 

Mask wearing has increased but only amongst our chinese student population, not seen anyone else wearing one. Only real help they offer is that it stops you touching your mouth and nose but no real help against airborne virus as their effectiveness wears off after a couple hours of breathing through it unless you have something more sophisticated than just a surgical mask.

 

I am due to go to Southampton university hospital tomorrow for a pre assessment for a procedure to shock my heart back into regular rhythm on Friday. The high dependency unit has been closed as a member of staff has been confirmed with the virus, the unit will be shut for 2 weeks. I am more concerned about the virus than the procedure mainly becuase I am in the high risk category - 62 years old with heart and lung problems. I realise they need to keep things going at the hospital but it seems to me any non urgent procedures should be cancelled. I feel as if I am walking into the lion's den. It has already been cancelled once, so I think it might be again, we will see.

 

I would be quite happy to self isolate, pretty much do that anyway, only go out to buy food and other supplies. As we live above the shop, a walk down the stairs is my commute to work. We would close the shop and claim the new benefits the government has offered for self employed people. Apart from a medical emergency for me or my OH or the cats, it would be 2 weeks to catch up on chinese lessons, my crafts and sorting the garden.

 

As spring is arriving they are saying this will help things, not sure why except for the same reason we have a flu seasons becuase we open doors and windows and don't congregate indoors in airtight places in the warmer weather.

 

Let's hope this is the case and things improve.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dtcamero]

2 hours ago, Tomsima said:

(the subway) was absolutely rammed and no facemasks anywhere. Im not saying facemasks are a must at all, but youd expect people to at least make some airs to show care is being taken

 

i think this is an interesting aspect of the different approaches being taken to the virus by china and AFAIK every other country. the chinese gov't and most ordinary people all put huge emphasis on the facemask, more than anything else, and talk about facemasks constantly as if they are the literal barrier between people and viruses. in AFAIK every other country experts are going out of their way to emphasize hand-washing and de-emphasize facemasks. 

 

western experts' logic IIRC is that the virus is carried in 'droplets', which are water but less like rain and more like a cloud, and are not something that can be filtered at all using a surgical mask (imagine trying to walk through a cloud wearing a paper mask and not breathe in the cloud...) The only masks that are effective are N95 masks, which most chinese don't have, and even those are usually worn incorrectly by the public. They must be correctly custom-fitted to achieve a complete seal before being effective. I have yet to hear a chinese health expert's rebuttal to this argument, maybe one exists.

 

so about that seal. the N95 mask usually has a metal bar at the top to wrap around your nose and close off airflow on either side of the nosebridge. this is somewhat effective but not great. I think the reality is that if you have a big nose with a high arch, you're kinda screwed here. if you have a mask on, your breath should be noticeably more difficult... if you are able to suck in air from either side of your nose, you are effectively not wearing a mask. again imagine walking through a cloud with that mask on... you are still breathing in the cloud. 

 

so then what to draw from this...

 

1. not to talk too much about different ethnicities' facial characteristics, but being that asian faces have flatter noses, I could imagine N95 facemasks being more effective there than in say western countries where people have much higher noses. having a low profile nose would give you a better shot of creating the required seal to effectively prevent transmission, assuming you're wearing an N95 mask. having a very high nose means that only the 3M brand N95 mask will maybe work for you... many other N95 masks won't fit.

 

2. perhaps the chinese gov't is really pushing the surgical paper masks in regards to saliva, and not airborne droplets... like the clear plastic mask worn by restaurant employees. A uniquely chinese solution to the chinese problem of people shouting (and hurling saliva) and otherwise spitting in public, and therefore relevant in china more than other countries. i love china but this could be a bad habit nationally that has epidemiological consequences.

 

3. perhaps the chinese gov't is insisting on masks (even ineffective ones) for 形式主义, to give people the impression they are controlling the situation, and avoid panic, similar to spraying down the streets with disinfectant.

 

4. alternately perhaps the west, which doesn't stock many facemasks in normal times for cultural reasons, is de-emphasizing any facemask-wearing (even correctly wearing N95s) in order to stop panic-buying and protect health professionals' ability to obtain them.

 

5. regardless i think it's kinda strange to place so much emphasis on facemasks when, even if they are effective at all, frequent handwashing is a much more effective means of preventing transmission.

many chinese I've met outside china seem to think both sides are pretty extreme and the appropriate reaction is somewhere in the middle.