Coronavirus - those in China, and general discussion

[Flickserve]

@dtcamero

 

i use N95 at work. 
 

each type has a different fitting characteristic and you need to do a test with it on to check if it works. 
 

I can wear two types and another one I failed. 
 

Personally, given the difficulty of fitting and the lower risk areas of the public, I don’t think n95 is of great benefit for ordinary people.
 

As to normally wearing a surgical mask, I agree filtration is not great. However, we could think out of the box a little more: 

 

- we touch our face perhaps less with a mask on

 

- we shake hands less if we have a mask on

 

- we don’t automatically kiss in greeting 

 

- people will stand further away from someone wearing a mask. 
 

- reminds us to wash hands more frequently 

- we stop to chat less often

 

 

All of these actions could actually reduce transmission  .... masks don’t filter too much viral material in itself but they do change our behaviour to reducing potential contact with infectious material. 
 

as far as I am aware, there’s no benefit of wearing a mask (or they never looked at the things I described), but also, there is no evidence of harm. 
 

not sure if I wrote it here before but the flu season this year in HK has been the shortest in ages. 

 

[Ruben von Zwack]

France seized all face masks and the production of them. It seems not everyone in the West agrees they are so useless

https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1234847500768509956

[889]

India has just closed the door to essentially all foreigners. Israel has done much the same thing with a mandatory two-week quarantine.

 

As I've mentioned before, country-by-country limits are becoming impractical, so this approach will probably spread.

 

[dtcamero]

@Ruben von Zwack

you need look no further than the US to see politicians acting with blatant disregard to health experts' advice

[Dawei3]

3 hours ago, Tomsima said:

we both wore facemasks

I did the same in the US on a train.  I was the only one on the train with a mask.  However, a woman sitting next to me on the trained leaned away the whole time.  When I went to get off the train, someone asked if I was infected or they were.    

 

This said, wearing a mask isn't an option for most Americans because they are unavailable.  Even simple masks sold in paint stores have been bought out.  

 

N95s were invented by the West and the right design for a person can fit their Western or Asian face.  At US companies, they "fit test you" and also do a medical evaluation before allowing you to use one (respirators impact blood pressure and respiration, so we're tested to see if we're healthy enough to use one) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1858664.  

 

With both flu and with this virus, we don't know the relative importance of inhaled versus the risk from touching your mouth, nose, & eyes.  

 

When this pandemic began, I told friends about the fact that medical masks are designed to protect others from your infection, whereas an N95 is designed to protect you.   However, this credible study from the J. of the Amer Med Assoc suggests these masks provide similar protection in health care situations from the flu:   https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2749214  (even after reading this, I still would use an N95 if available)  It may be that small droplets are relatively rare and that a medical mask protects you by keeping you from touching yourself and by stopping large droplets.  

 

Reducing rates of infection will flatten out the rate of new infections and this reduces the likelihood of overwhelming health care.  If controls are really good, the r-value will be pushed below 1 and the pandemic will stop.  The level of control is based on the cumulative result of everything that is done.  China is controlling the risk and is doing so thru extensive use of masks.  Friends in China and my company's sites there are giving employees 1 or 2 masks/day.  This is much more contagious than the flu, so hand washing is likely not enough.  Eventually, I expect most of the rest of the world will move to using masks because just having everyone stay home isn't an economically viable approach.  

 

 

 

 

[Jan Finster]

3 hours ago, Flickserve said:

As to normally wearing a surgical mask, I agree filtration is not great. However, we could think out of the box a little more: 

 

- we touch our face perhaps less with a mask on

 

- we shake hands less if we have a mask on

 

- we don’t automatically kiss in greeting 

 

- people will stand further away from someone wearing a mask. 
 

- reminds us to wash hands more frequently 

- we stop to chat less often

 

 

All of these actions could actually reduce transmission  .... masks don’t filter too much viral material in itself but they do change our behaviour to reducing potential contact with infectious material. 
 

as far as I am aware, there’s no benefit of wearing a mask (or they never looked at the things I described), but also, there is no evidence of harm. 

 

Thank you so much for this. The value of masks is really beyond the filtration. As I am writing this, I stopped to think and touched my mouth with my hand. This would not happen if I wore a mask. 

It is also not true that only China insists on it. Taiwan also encourages people to wear masks in a crowded environment.

 

 

[Jan Finster]

3 hours ago, Ruben von Zwack said:

Same in Germany. We are in the center of Munich, and host large numbers of people, participants and clients, in our offices on a regular evening like yesterday.
Don't think we'd wipe the door handles with sanitizer or anything! Or that the toilet is cleaned more often than once a day. Nothing.
Ironically, this is the type of middle class people who can't sleep at night for fear of air pollution by Diesel cars, and of artificial ingredients in their food.

 

I can sadly confirm about Germany: 

Today at work, one of my colleagues send a message around lunch time that she would be leaving early because she had a fever  ?We were all: WTF did she come to work in the first place??? ?

One of my colleagues is currently home with a flu and fever and does not bother checking herself for coronavirus ?

One of my bosses still thinks it is a good idea to fly to Naples for Easter with his family unless the airline cancels the flight, because only then will he not lose the money he spent on the tickets. On top of that, he thinks you can get coronavirus just as easily in Germany.. ?

 

 

It is true what people say: coronavirus will hit the West harder than the  East, because we are mostly just thinking egoistically and not considering the community enough. The number of coronavirus cases per million citizens is already much higher in Italy and Germany than it is in China....

 

 

 

3 hours ago, dtcamero said:

frequent handwashing is a much more effective means of preventing transmission.

How realistic is this in real life though? 

When you work in a company with other people or when you see customers, you could basically wash your hands non-stop. I did not shake anyone's hand today, but I touched something like 50-70 door handles (some of them repeatedly) and I typed on something like 10 different keyboards (some of them repeatedly). Basically, I would have to disinfect myself each time I touch a door handle or keyboard...

[Ruben von Zwack]

4 hours ago, Shelley said:

I am more concerned about the virus than the procedure mainly becuase I am in the high risk category - 62 years old with heart and lung problems.

Good luck, Shelley! I'll be keeping fingers crossed for you.

[somethingfunny]

The school I work at is on the brink.  First thing we do in the morning is take the pupils to wash their hands.  Anyone who has come into any kind of contact with someone who might have the virus is told to stay at home.  And the general feeling is that we're just waiting for word from the government to close.  Today we had to go round and make sure all the kids had internet access at home and could access the school's online learning platform, then we had a session in the morning and setting work remotely.

[abcdefg]

1 hour ago, Ruben von Zwack said:

Good luck, Shelley! I'll be keeping fingers crossed for you.

 

Me too, @Shelley. Hope all goes well!

[mungouk]

@somethingfunny — where are you in China, 大英？ I'm surprised to hear your school wasn't told to go 100% online right away, as I thought that was the general policy.  I'm pretty sure it was in Beijing and Shanghai anyway.

 

My heart goes out to anyone working in a small school, or any small business really... this must really be starting to hurt cashflows.

 

And if your school relies on foreign teachers then I know many will be wondering whether or not to return to China.

 

 

[somethingfunny]

Sorry, I should have been clearer.  I live in the UK - I thought the conversation seemed to be heading that direction a little.

 

I imagine most schools in China are currently gearing up to open their doors again.

[mungouk]

There may be light at the end of the tunnel soon, in China at least. The college in Hangzhou where I should've been physically working since the start of February has let admin staff return to work in the past week or so, and they're just waiting for the word from the local Education Bureau about when they can have their return-to-school plans approved for the students, before they start to go back.  

 

(Meanwhile we've all been teaching and learning 100% online.)

 

I'm told that Hangzhou has reported no new cases of COVID-19 for the last 20 days and there are only 3 confirmed cases left.

 

The irony is that quarantine restrictions appear to be strengthening again, but this time for anyone arriving in China who might possibly import the virus. 

[mungouk]

4 minutes ago, somethingfunny said:

Sorry, I should have been clearer.  I live in the UK

 

Oh, so "we're just waiting for word from the government to close" didn't mean you're about to close down, or did it?

 

Hopefully not!

 

 

[Shelley]

Thank you all for your kind wishes.

 

I am sort of keen to just get it over but wouldn't mind at all if they canceled it for another month.

I feel in a months time we will know just how bad it is/will be. 

 

At the moment we are all sort of trying to ignore it and get on with normal life and I think that maybe a dangerous thing. My opinion is we should be bolting the stable door now.

 

Bite the bullet, close the country, take all precautions and ride out the worst in relative isolation to stop the virus in its tracks. 4 to 6 weeks of shut down as opposed to 3 months or more of a dragged out war of attrition.

[Flickserve]

Good luck Shelley.

 

It's better to get it done sooner before hospitals get innundated.

[Flickserve]

3 hours ago, somethingfunny said:

Sorry, I should have been clearer.  I live in the UK - I thought the conversation seemed to be heading that direction a little.

 

It's really strange how UK government (and others) is so relaxed about the situation waiting for evidence.

 

One conspiracy theory gaining traction is the effect of infection and future healthcare costs. A sort of throwing people to the wolves for future savings.

[889]

The US is now suspending "all travel from Europe" but not including the UK.

[Flickserve]

7 hours ago, Jan Finster said:

 

I can sadly confirm about Germany: 

Today at work, one of my colleagues send a message around lunch time that she would be leaving early because she had a fever  ?We were all: WTF did she come to work in the first place??? ?

One of my colleagues is currently home with a flu and fever and does not bother checking herself for coronavirus ?

One of my bosses still thinks it is a good idea to fly to Naples for Easter with his family unless the airline cancels the flight, because only then will he not lose the money he spent on the tickets. On top of that, he thinks you can get coronavirus just as easily in Germany.. ?

It’s so sad to hear about this. We have had poor advice about not wearing a mask unless you are ill and now many non-Asians think people in asia are over reacting. Singapore is the exception but only when your whole population and leaders are on the same wavelength. In HK, it’s the non-Chinese who do not wear masks (I.e. Caucasians) but they also reason if everyone else is wearing a mask, then there is enough herd immunity. 
 

People deliberately not wearing masks do have a mentality of “I am smarter than the rest of them” and also refusal of succumbing to ‘herd mentality’. Unfortunately, they become too stubborn to later alter their behaviour when the situation changes.  
 

8 hours ago, Jan Finster said:

When you work in a company with other people or when you see customers, you could basically wash your hands non-stop. I did not shake anyone's hand today, but I touched something like 50-70 door handles (some of them repeatedly) and I typed on something like 10 different keyboards (some of them repeatedly). Basically, I would have to disinfect myself each time I touch a door handle or keyboard..

 

Good question. Some strategies that people in Hong Kong.

 

- Use a tissue to open doors. Use the same tissue to open other doors or press lifts. Throw tissue away and then use hand sanitizer (aim to decrease viral load).

 

- open a door with your feet

 

- if a door is closing, put out your foot to stop it closing and then push it open with your foot. You won’t need to use you hand to touch it.

 

- put a clear plastic sheet over keyboards. You can still type, just a bit slower. Plastic sheets are easier to clean
 

- carry a little spray with alcohol. You can spray suspicious surfaces with it and then use tissue to wipe it. Throw away tissue afterwards. 

 

- Prepare a mat outside your home, have it soaked with disinfectant and step on it with your shoes before going inside. 

- wipe down toilets seats and close the lid when flushing. Coronavirus stays in faeces and water droplets splash up in the air when flushing the toilet. 
 

- use a key to press a lift button (small surface area, key can be cleaned easily). 

 

 

 

Yup. It does sound a bit weird but it seems to work. There are more outlandish ones but these described are habits that can done easily. Remember that you aim to decrease virus numbers as nothing can be 100% out in the community.
 

Anybody who stayed in mainland China have any other suggestions? 

[889]

Keys and other hard objects can damage lift buttons, as signs constantly remind. Just make sure your fingers are somehow covered.