translation help

[kudra]

This is from a draft copy of Written Standard Chinese, vol 3, by Huang and Stimson. Chap 38 has a essay about the European Renaissance. Here is a paragraph discussing Astronomy.

天文學方面的知識有了空前的進步。用望遠鏡來看天上的星星﹐月亮和太陽﹐證明月

球是天天在轉動的﹐地球也是天天在轉動的。

天文学方面的知识有了空前的进步。用望远镜来看天上的星星，月亮和太阳，证明月

球是天天在转动的，地球也是天天在转动的。

Here is my clunky translation, I am not going to try to make it idiomatic English: On the astronomy side of knowledge there was unprecedented progress. Using telescope(s) to look at the stars, the moon and the sun in the sky(heavens), it was proven that the moon is revolving daily(?), and the the earth is also revolving daily.

So my first question is, does the 天天 here mean "daily" in the sense that the moon spins on its axis once per day(which is not true -- it spins once on its axis in approximately a month, since it keeps the same face toward the earth). Or does it mean "continuously."

Note, you don't need a telescope to tell that the moon goes around the earth.

2nd question is the issue of revolve vs. rotate. The gloss for 轉動 is revolve, which in English usually goes with moving in an orbit around something else, as in "The Earth revolves around the Sun in a year." Spinning on an axis is usually refered to as rotate, as in, "The Earth rotates on its axis once every day." Note mandarintools gives 轉動 as simply "turn". So which is it, rotate or revolve, and how do you say the other? (Note: www.m-w.com doesn't make a distinction between these 2, but at an astronomy site like http://www.astro.uu.nl/~strous/AA/en/antwoorden/planeten.html, the usage is as I describe.)

The third question is whether the passage is saying that the fact that the earth rotates once a day was proven thanks to the observations made with telescopes. I suppose that telescope observations that gave support to the heliocentric model by implication gave support to the view that the earth was rotating, however I thought the precession of a pendulum was the actual "proof" of that fact.

4th question: what is the function of the 2 在's? "at the moment", "actually", "in fact"?

I don't need an astronomy or physics lesson. Just an explanation of how to say what is going on given that the passage seems to have some logical problems.

Thanks.

[studentyoung]

So my first question is, does the 天天 here mean "daily" in the sense that the moon spins on its axis once per day(which is not true -- it spins once on its axis in approximately a month, since it keeps the same face toward the earth). Or does it mean "continuously."

Yes, you are right. Literally, “天天” means “daily”, but according to the contexts, you can say that it means “continuously” in the sentence.

2nd question is the issue of revolve vs. rotate. The gloss for 轉動 is revolve, which in English usually goes with moving in an orbit around something else, as in "The Earth revolves around the Sun in a year." Spinning on an axis is usually refered to as rotate, as in, "The Earth rotates on its axis once every day." Note mandarintools gives 轉動 as simply "turn". So which is it, rotate or revolve, and how do you say the other?

In deeper meanings in astronomical field:

“revolve” can be translated as “围着……旋转/转动；公转”

Your sentence: The Earth revolves around the Sun in a year.

In Chinese, that is: 在一年内，地球围绕太阳转动。/ 地球围绕太阳公转（的时间）是一年。

“rotate” can be translated as “自转”

Your sentence: The Earth rotates on its axis once every day

In Chinese, that is: 地球每天在地轴上自转一次。/ 地球在地轴上自转一次（的时间）是一天。

The third question is whether the passage is saying that the fact that the earth rotates once a day was proven thanks to the observations made with telescopes.

Yes.

4th question: what is the function of the 2 在's? "at the moment", "actually", "in fact"?

I think here the sentence structure should be “主语（subject）+是在……的”, which means the subject keeps in some state. So you can say in the sentence, “在……的” means “be + V+ing”.

Thanks!

[in_lab]

I'll try.

1. "Daily" is correct, but the passage does not state "once" daily.

2. To be more precise, you could say that the earth 自轉 once a day, and 公轉 once a year.

3. Not sure.

4. Zai4 is to indicate they are turning in the present.

[HashiriKata]

Just a note on your 3rd question.

I suppose that telescope observations that gave support to the heliocentric model by implication gave support to the view that the earth was rotating, however I thought the precession of a pendulum was the actual "proof" of that fact.

I think you took the meaning of 证明 a bit too literally. In the context here, instead of "it was proven that", it can be quite safe to say "it can be seen that (the moon is revolving continuously)".

Cheers,

[nipponman]

My translation:天文學方面的知識有了空前的進步。用望遠鏡來看天上的星星﹐月亮和太陽﹐證明月

球是天天在轉動的﹐地球也是天天在轉動的。

There has been unprecedented improvement in the astronomical field of study. Through the the use of the telescope, the stars in heaven can be seen, including the moon and he sun.

Proving the moon does indeed revolve daily (around the earth), and that the earth also daily revolves (around the sun).

[kudra]

At the risk of starting an endless loop of self referential comments, let me comment on Nipponman's translation.

This passage refers to Renaissance Europe, so the action is in the distant past which is why I said "there was" as opposed to nipponman's "there has been...." for 有了.

To make it a continuing progress, I suppose you would had a final 了.

A: 有了空前的進步了

although with the verb 有 this sounds a little strange, but I am definitly rusty. How about 進步 as verb and 空前 as adverb (I am also rusty with my grammatical terms)

B: 天文學方面的知識有進步了空前了

so, A or B, which gives the better translation of nipponman's "There has been unprecedented improvement in the astronomical field of study" implying continuing progress?

Thanks.

[nipponman]

He, sorry for my inadequate translation, I didn't have the all important context from which to make a better one.

A few corrections, 空前 must be an adjective (or at least should be) because of the use of

的 there really isn't much room for debate on this issue. Which brings me to the fact that

進步 must be a noun because it is being modified by an adjective. A little circular, but I think it makes sense.

[kudra]

nipponman, you are right of course, I should have deleted the 的.

And I didn't mean to pick on you.

How about

C: 天文學方面的知識進步了空前了.

I am pretty sure that 進步 can be used this way as a verb, but I don't know about 空前.

For example,

x 進步 了 很 多 (了).

x progressed a lot. -- no了, completed

x has progressed a lot -- with 了, continuing

Given all that © seems OK.

so my question is: is © actually OK, i.e. can 空前 be used instead of 很 多, (albeit changing the meaning.)

[Quest]

so my question is: is © actually OK, i.e. can 空前 be used instead of 很 多, (albeit changing the meaning.)

A, B, and C are all not OK.

To make it a continuous progress, you could add: 一直以来, 有着, and 不断

一直以来天文學方面的知識不断地有着空前的進步。

[kudra]

thanks Quest.

[kudra]

OK now I've digested Quest's answer above.....

So, actually what I meant by "contining" was that the progress is in the recent past but continues into the present. Not "continuously in the past," as Quest took it.

Back in the thread I jumped (I hope in a friendly way) on nipponman's use of "There has been..." as opposed to "There was ..."

To be explicit,

D. "(during the European Renaisance) there was unprecedented progress ...."

as opposed to

E. "(during the last three years) there has been unprecedented progress...."

I think that the original sentence from the textbook

天文学方面的知识有了空前的进步.

best translates as D rather than E.

To double check this, I was trying to write E in Chinese. I attempted this using an extra 了and making 进步 a verb. Why the heck would I do that? Well I'm pretty rusty.

Forgive me for reviewing some basic patterns. I have forgotten this and am trying to get it back in my active knowledge.

I seem to remember the pattern (please correct me if I am wrong)

V + 了+ Measured Noun [ + 了]

For example

我喝了三瓶酒. -- Isn't this "I drank 3 bottles of beer" [completed action]

我喝了三瓶酒了 -- and "I have drunk 3 bottles of beer"[continuing, possibly not finished]

我喝了三瓶酒呢 -- "I have drunk 3 bottles of beer so far" [here the continuing nature is explicit.]

(which could explain why this post is so long)

But instead of trying to shoe-horn the astronomy sentence into some version of

V + 了+ Measured Noun [ + 了], ( obviously there is no Measured Noun)

perhaps the continuing meaning of E can be found by using Quests suggested 有着.

F. (最近以来)天文學方面的知識有着空前的進步

(In the recent past) there has been unprecedented progress in Astronomy.--implied still happening.

G. (最近以来)天文學方面的知識有了空前的進步

(In the recent past) there was unprecedented progress in Astronomy. (possibly finished)

Let me add that I really appreciate the help from the forum members.

Thanks.