Discouragement and Impatience in Chinese Learning

[Larry Language Lover]

Does anyone else go through cycles of discouragement with your progress in Chinese?  At one moment you are so excited and enthused and in another moment you feel like maybe it is just too difficult and time could be better invested in something else or another language?

I read with a native speaker every week using books that were designed by China for Chinese children living overseas.   Of course it is not a difficult level,  but there is no pinyin and no tone marks except for about 12 words at the end of each unit.   I have had 2 different teachers tell me I have good pronunciation,  but I really think that's a lie.  The native I'm working with now two weeks ago told me I read well.   Last week he said your pronunciation is getting better.   This week he told me I need to work on my tones.  How do you remember tones for so many characters when you aren't using any pinyin?  He has told me he is going to be really strict with my pronunciation and anytime I don't say it right I just have to repeat the word after him again and again and again.   (The latest jewel is 认真 lol)

 

I think part of the reason I go through these really low periods is because of success with other European languages (I am American).   I have high conversational levels in Spanish, French, and German.   I only used Duolingo to learn German (my latest) and my native contacts said I talk like a foreigner who has already lived 4 years in Germany.

To be fair,  to learn Chinese,  so far I have only used the apps Duolingo, Hello Chinese, and Chinese Skill.    And now,  the weekly reading with a native which I really enjoy,  but sometimes I feel like a total incompetent.

[ChTTay]

Theres a lot of information in your post. I think it’s only natural to have highs and lows with studying Chinese. I took a hiatus in 2014 from studying and it’s been great. 6 years later and I’m feeling wonderful about Chinese. 
 

Try take a break or change what you’re doing. If they say work on your tones then what are you doing about it? Shadowing is one way that springs to mind and would help with memorising. 
 

Using books designed for Chinese children sounds horrific. Get a real textbook for adults. 
 

Ignore most complements about your Chinese at this stage. There are a bunch of threads about this on here that touch on this So I don’t want to go into it again. 

[Jan Finster]

I totally agree with you about impatience. In fact, just a few minutes ago, I searched the forums for "most efficient way to study Chinese", because I felt progress could be faster ? 

Just so you do not have to waste your time doing the same:

https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/34571-which-method-do-you-think-is-the-most-efficient-way-to-learn-chinese/

https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/33866-best-strategy-to-self-study-mandarin/

https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/12395-the-most-effective-way-to-learn-chinese-recommendations-and-opinions-please/

 

Regarding reading, I can strongly recommend Lingq.com (premium version). It helps immensely! There is a lot of free and interesting content to read on Lingq and you can import whatever you like. In terms of efficiency, I currently watch Chinese TV shows with English subtitles. Then I read the Chinese subtitle text on Lingq. The great thing about Lingq is that it tells you which words you do not know. So, I can skip sentences where I already know all the words and only practice reading sentences with new words. Since I have already watched the episode, I know the content and skipping the easy parts saves me a lot of time. 

[Moki]

I think the posts mentioned above would all be worthwhile to read through and get a good perspective of what other people have been through, or learned the hard way. There may not be a perfect way to learn Chinese, but there are plenty of things that could save you time. It will be a time consuming process, but it should also be an enjoyable one. You may end up feeling discouraged many times along the way, but don't give up. Chinese is a very fascinating language and if you stick with it I don't think you will regret having put time into it. 

[Dawei3]

On 2/17/2020 at 6:59 AM, Larry Language Lover said:

no pinyin and no tone marks

I think pinyin and tone marks are essential for learners.  Chinese don't need them because they hear the words in everyday life.  

 

The best way I've found is using microsoft Word.  I like because it puts the pinyin directly above the word (albeit, I add spaces between the words).  比如:

 

The way to access the above is once you've enabled Chinese typing under Windows, highlight the Chinese characters and  in the home screen of windows, click on the abcA:  

I like the Word approach because the pinyin is directly above the characters and so you learn to associate them. 

 

(forgive me if you already know this.  Most Chinese I know don't know it/don't need it, so your teachers may not know about it.  I have a colleague who was painstakingly writing pinyin for her daughter until I showed her this).  

 

Another factor to mention regarding language progress is personal contact.  My language partners are also close friends and we both appreciate being able to delve deeply into each others language and culture.  Some of these friends I had only met once, but we continued contact to practice language and wonderful friendships results.  To me, the top factor in adult success with language is motivation.  It's my friends and chance encounters that provide that motivation.

 

 

[Shelley]

What version of word are you using? In later versions the Ruby text is missing and this doesn't work.

Does anyone know how to fix this?

I did find it useful when it worked.

[Luxi]

45 minutes ago, Shelley said:

What version of word are you using?

 

Hi @Shelley ! Office 365 subscription in Windows 10 latest, but it's probably the same for any version of Word in Office 2016 and later. Ruby text is there but has been moved around and is now under the header Phonetic Guide (in case you want to search for it).

 

48 minutes ago, Shelley said:

Does anyone know how to fix this?

 

 

I assume one needs to have the Chinese Pack installed, I'm not sure whether it also requires the Chinese language Proofing Tools downloaded from Ms Office, though I can't think why it would. Try.

 

I'm just expanding a little from the explanation above. Open a Chinese document / or type a new one in Word, highlight the text you want to check (can do the whole document if you wish), select 'Home' in the ribbon, and then click the abc/A button along the top row of the Font area. A dialogue called 'Phonetic Guide' pops up and gives some formatting options for the pinyin (Ruby Text), Default Readings is just fine for quick guidance.

 

To get rid of the pinyin text just click 'Clear Text' in the Phonetic Guide dialogue.

 

.

[Shelley]

Hello @Luxi Thanks for your help.

I have used this very successfully in the past but since updating my office in win 7 it doesn't work anymore becuase the Ruby text is missing.

I have the asian language packs installed. 

 

[Dawei3]

12 minutes ago, Shelley said:

I have used this very successfully in the past but since updating my office in win 7 it doesn't work anymore becuase the Ruby text is missing

Reading your exchange with Luxi reminded me:  for Win 7, you need to download the MSPY 2010 patch from Microsoft.  If I remember, the page for downloading was in Chinese.

 

Pinyin joe describes it: 

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/all/office-2010-wwindows-7-ruby-text-not-displaying-in/4386d237-9633-43b7-a841-74f0473147ff

 

http://www.pinyinjoe.com/faq/word-phonetic-guide-missing-pinyin.htm

 

Text from his page:

 

 

 

 

[Luxi]

Sorry it didn't help @Shelley, I guess the problem may be Microsoft not bothering to update apps for Windows 7. I must say it works very well with Windows 10 and the newest version of Office.

[Shelley]

Ah yes @Dawei3 I remember that now. The mention of pinyin Joe reminded me, I went through this before but fell at the first hurdle becuase it was all in Chinese and I was unsure of it and how to progress.

I wasn't brave enough to follow through with these updates and now win 7 is no longer supported I wonder if all that is worth it as I will be eventually going over to win 10.

 

Thanks @Luxi 

[Dawei3]

51 minutes ago, Shelley said:

it was all in Chinese and I was unsure of it and how to progress.

At the time I did this, my Chinese reading ability was limited.  However, Pinyin joe took me thru the screens and I was able to do so successfully.  Because it was a microsoft site, i was comfortable with downloading the file.  

[Larry Language Lover]

Can this be done in Office.com or do you have to buy a year's subscription to Office and Word?

[艾墨本]

11 hours ago, Dawei3 said:

I think pinyin and tone marks are essential for learners.  Chinese don't need them because they hear the words in everyday life.  

Chinese do need them and most Chinese kids rely on pinyin in both their casual reading and official textbooks up through (rough estimate of) about third grade.

[道艺]

^Yes haha. I caught some 2nd graders last semester passing a note, and 60% of it was in pinyin. 

 

On topic, I prefer the immersion route, and the first six months were rough. I was constantly doubting my decision, thinking I could've just as easily gone to France or something. I hated screwing up tones when in line or having the cashier just straight point at the menu. Keep perservering, those brick wall moments will become fewer, but I'd guess they'll never fully go away. 

[Larry Language Lover]

20 hours ago, Dawei3 said:

 

 

The way to access the above is once you've enabled Chinese typing under Windows, highlight the Chinese characters and  in the home screen of windows, click on the abcA:  

I like the Word approach because the pinyin is directly above the characters and so you learn to associate them. 

 

(forgive me if you already know this.  Most Chinese I know don't know it/don't need it, so your teachers may not know about it.  I have a colleague who was painstakingly writing pinyin for her daughter until I showed her this).  

 

Another factor to mention regarding language progress is personal contact.  My language partners are also close friends and we both appreciate being able to delve deeply into each others language and culture.  Some of these friends I had only met once, but we continued contact to practice language and wonderful friendships results.  To me, the top factor in adult success with language is motivation.  It's my friends and chance encounters that provide that motivation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, I wasn't aware of this at all,  thanks!    Does it add pinyin to a whole document or pdf file at the touch of a button?   This is a new laptop so it doesn't have the pay version of Office yet.   I can upload these pdf files I have been learning with to Word,  and the buttons you mention appear but are unclickable because it is the free version.  It has a little message that offers the features for free on office.com, but when I open it in office.com it is a super simplified Word version with no special features at all.  I don't know how to open the other button options.  It would be amazing if I could add correct pinyin to these pdf files I've been using.

[Dawei3]

20 hours ago, 艾墨本 said:

Chinese kids rely on pinyin in both their casual reading and official textbooks up through (rough estimate of) about third grade.

I should have mentioned "adults don't need them."  I was aware pinyin is used in teaching kids (and this is why it was invented in the 1st place.  It's also wonderful that pinyin makes it easy to type Chinese on a regular keyboard).

 

22 hours ago, Larry Language Lover said:

Office.com or do you have to buy a year's subscription to Office and Word?

I'm not sure about this.  I have a regular copy of Word.

 

To have it add pinyin, you have to highlight the text and then click the buttons (a macro would work too).  You may need to highlight a paragraph at a time.  The pages with pinyin are printable/saveable.   

 

One thing is that I prefer putting spaces between words before having it add the pinyin.   That is, to me, the following isn't very helpful:

 

I prefer adding spaces before adding the pinyin:

 

Hence, if I was going to "pinyin" a whole page, I would add the spaces 1st.   

 

 

I think it only works for Word files.  

 

 

(Roddy - it's GREAT that this site allows for showing snippets of text like the above)