can we get rid of the -ese suffix?

[smithsgj]

> its wrong grammar usage, and when that happens it usually means insult or mockery.

I agree that "Chinaman" does sound insulting. Was it a type of ship originally??

But it's not "wrong grammar usage". It's not grammar anyway, it's derivational morphology; and noun compounds of this type are common enough: indiarubber, Cheddar cheese, UK government.

Is there in fact any evidence that incorrect or non-standard forms are insulting or mocking?

[holyman]

no, that was indiaman, a ship that trade with the indians(dunno west indies or east indies). think it was purposely created by some british in their journals when they travel to the east during the 19th cen.

sorry i didnt make myself clear. what i meant was such names related to a specific race or group of people(as in where the guy came from, as i said in my post), not products or organiations. of course, nobody will say this but imagine if i already knew basic english yet i call a french guy a 'franceman', what do u think i am trying to do? probably trying to crack a joke on him, right?

edit: i mean the 'chinaman' term was created by the british travellers, not 'indiaman'. i secretly guess 'indiaman' might be a 'man o'war sent to india' or a 'india man o'war'. :D

[smithsgj]

Perhaps Chinaman evolved because *they* don't have any proper adjectives or nouns for nationalities. I mean taking the country-name and sticking 'ren' after it is a bit of a cop-out innit? I don't think I'd be insulted by anyone calling me an Englandman, I'd just assume they'd made a mistake.

But anyway.

What's the deal with "Chinese" as a *noun*. Like, you know, "John is married to a Chinese". "Because I am a Chinese". Sounds like the sentence isn't finished.... A Chinese What?

And the plural is still "Chinese". "Chinese eat with chopsticks". Of course you can say "The Chinese eat with chopsticks" in the same way as you can say "The British eat with chopsticks" but to my ear without the article 'the' both sound weird. I think it's formally correct, and *often* used by Chinese native speakers speaking English, but never used by native speakers of English. Thoughts?

[holyman]

yeah, beats me too... should be chinese+something... like chinese guy... or maybe i create a new one, a chinian...

[Guest greenpine]

i think there is a word called sinian which is the -ian version of chinese.

[Guest greenpine]

well, perhaps i was a bit over, but one thing is for sure, by no standard that modern chinese are actually respecting themselves and their culture, compare historically or internationally, we are far far behind ...

[holyman]

oh my, 'sina' and 'china' actually came from the same source... some indian multiple vowel name for the qin dynasty... think either will do.

[PollyWaffle]

PS Out of curiosity, what word would you choose to replace Chinese?

I have read very old accounts where the chinese are referred to 'chineans'. This is in the Book of Tea which also refers to the Dutch as Hollanders

[holyman]

PS Out of curiosity, what word would you choose to replace Chinese?

I have read very old accounts where the chinese are referred to 'chineans'. This is in the Book of Tea which also refers to the Dutch as Hollanders

The Book of Tea by Kakuzo Okakura:

... The earliest record of tea in European writing is said to be found in the statement of an Arabian traveller, that after the year 879 the main sources of revenue in Canton were the duties on salt and tea. Marco Polo records the deposition of a Chinese minister of finance in 1285 for his arbitrary augmentation of the tea-taxes. It was at the period of the great discoveries that the European people began to know more about the extreme Orient. At the end of the sixteenth century the Hollanders brought the news that a pleasant drink was made in the East from the leaves of a bush. The travellers Giovanni Batista Ramusio (1559), L. Almeida (1576), Maffeno (1588), Tareira (1610), also mentioned tea. In the last-named year ships of the Dutch East India Company brought the first tea into Europe. It was known in France in 1636, and reached Russia in 1638. England welcomed it in 1650 and spoke of it as "That excellent and by all physicians approved China drink, called by the Chineans Tcha, and by other nations Tay, alias Tee."

ah... the internet is such a fine thing...

edit: missed out the hollanders

[holyman]

'tay' is a hokkien pronouciation cos hokkien was famous for producing tea, and quanzhou was one of the international ports.

[bathrobe]

well, perhaps i was a bit over, but one thing is for sure, by no standard that modern chinese are actually respecting themselves and their culture, compare historically or internationally, we are far far behind ...

greenpine, I sympathise but disagree. My feeling is that the Chinese are still at a stage in history where they must absorb ideas and culture from the West. At some point in the future, when China is economically well off and internationally self-assured, I think that it will have the confidence to fully reclaim its self-respect and its cultural heritage. When that happens it will be something natural, not forced or chauvinistic. I think it's too early to despair yet!