when to start learning Traditional before moving to Taiwan

[jannesan]

Hi everyone,

I have been certain that I want to move to China in about 2-3 years for quite some time already.

For the past year I have been thinking more about which concrete city I would like to go to and I'm more and more leaning towards going to Taiwan instead of Mainland.

 

Soon I will have been studying Chinese for 3 years and it's still fun and rewarding. The road ahead to something I would consider fluency is still long though,

I am only beginning now to consume native materials such as books and TV shows and I estimate it will take years to be able to consume native material with a high level of understanding.

 

I am now wondering when would be a good point for me to start learning traditional characters to prepare myself for living in Taiwan.

On the one hand I don't want to take away time from working on listening comprehension, speaking and reading material in simplified form,

but on the other hand I want to be relatively comfortable reading and writing traditional characters when I arrive in Taiwan.

From reading some other threads on the forum here I already have an idea on what my learning approach will be like (probably first going through the 简化字总表),

but I am not sure how long it would take (assuming max 1 hour of dedicated study time per day).

 

Maybe some of you who also learned traditional after simplified could help me here?:)

 

[imron]

I learnt traditional after simplified, but I didn't really start learning them until I was at the point where I was reading novels in simplified.

 

The way I learnt was just to pick up a novel in traditional characters and read that.  By the time I finished, I could read them well enough.

 

At HSK4, it might be a bit tricky to do the same thing, however Mandarin Companion has readers in both Traditional and Simplified, and things like WordSwing also have support for traditional characters, so maybe that's a good place to start?

[anonymoose]

If you know you will be going to Taiwan over the mainland, personally I would ditch simplified characters and do everything in traditional. Once you know one set, the other will be easy enough to learn anyway.

 

I have never specifically learnt traditional characters, but reading in context is no problem for me. The only thing I can't do is write by hand, but as the only time I would ever use traditional characters in my present situation (i.e. not living in Taiwan) is on my phone/computer, I never have occasion to write by hand anyway.

[Shelley]

I thought about this sometime ago and asked a similar question, the end result was that I am learning both together but in my case the emphasis is still on simplified and it is quite doable.

I use Pleco and this shows me both in the dictionary,  I learn them together but am concentrating on writing in simplified. My aim is to be eventually to be at a high level in simplified but to be able to read and recognise traditional.

 

I think if this is something you are sure you want  to do, then I would just start, don't forget you can always stop if your needs change.

 

One thing that I think will surprise you is just how many simplified characters are also used in the traditional set. Traditional is not an exclusive set, they do overlap and what you do in one is not wasted or confusing in another.

 

Enjoy, it is actually quite fun, traditional characters sometimes make more sense as to their etymology.

 

[oceancalligraphy]

3 hours ago, jannesan said:

I am now wondering when would be a good point for me to start learning traditional characters to prepare myself for living in Taiwan.

 

I would say as soon as possible. Also be aware that there are differences in word usage between Taiwan and China.

 

One place to start might be Let's Learn Chinese. The text is in traditional, but if there is a simplified form of the character, it is notated smaller above the traditional character. 

 

The other thing to look into is TOCFL, which is Taiwan's test for proficiency. 

[Tomsima]

get a copy of a defrancis reader and sit down and read it, highly repetitive and easy content all printed in traditional, surely the easiest and most painfree way to get your eyes used to the differences. Give it a month of daily practice and you're basically good to go

[Jan Finster]

You could get TheChairmansBao and/or Chinesepod. Both have audio and you can choose which character version you like to read the texts in. You could, for instance, listen to the audio and then read the text in traditional. Or you read simplified first and then read it again in traditional. If I am ever bothered to learn traditional characters, this would be my approach.

 

[matteo]

Maybe slightly off-topic but hey @jannesan the situation you are describing is so similar to mine (I opened a thread about it once here https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/58709-suggestions-for-long-term-stay-in-china/), I'm also planning a move sometimes end of this year or early the next (very pandemic dependent I guess).

I'd be more inclined towards the mainland thou.

May I ask you what your plan is for moving / studying / finding a job etc? 

[jannesan]

Thanks everyone for your ideas and perspectives!

 

20 hours ago, imron said:

The way I learnt was just to pick up a novel in traditional characters and read that.  By the time I finished, I could read them well enough.

 

So you didn't specifically try to memorize any of those characters first that have completely different forms?

Switching to traditional reading material is definitely also part of my plan, but I was thinking that going through that simplification table first should really pay off in the long run.

 

20 hours ago, imron said:

At HSK4, it might be a bit tricky to do the same thing, however Mandarin Companion has readers in both Traditional and Simplified, and things like WordSwing also have support for traditional characters, so maybe that's a good place to start?

14 hours ago, Jan Finster said:

You could get TheChairmansBao and/or Chinesepod

 

I have used all of these before (except WordSwing), but I feel that I am at a point where I should fully transition to native material. It's harder but also way more fun and rewarding.

That said, I think always having some textbook on the side is still very helpful for me to keep up with practicing grammar.

 

16 hours ago, Tomsima said:

get a copy of a defrancis reader and sit down and read it, highly repetitive and easy content all printed in traditional

18 hours ago, oceancalligraphy said:

One place to start might be Let's Learn Chinese. The text is in traditional, but if there is a simplified form of the character, it is notated smaller above the traditional character. 

 

Looks good, especially having simplified as well may be useful at the beginning.

 

19 hours ago, anonymoose said:

If you know you will be going to Taiwan over the mainland, personally I would ditch simplified characters and do everything in traditional.

 

I couldn't do this, I know the time learning simplified would absolutely not go to waste but it would still feel wrong for me.

 

18 hours ago, oceancalligraphy said:

I would say as soon as possible. Also be aware that there are differences in word usage between Taiwan and China.

18 hours ago, Shelley said:

I think if this is something you are sure you want  to do, then I would just start, don't forget you can always stop if your needs change.

 

Hmm, don't you think as I still have more than 2 years before I will be there, improving my general level a bit more before focusing on traditional and differences in word usage (tbh. I think the difference is not that big, judging from some TV shows and the conversations I had with people in Taiwan before) could be more efficient?

I'm probably overthinking this, but given that I have a limited amount of time and energy I would really like to optimize my approach here.

 

In the long run I would like to be able to both read simplified and traditional at the same level of comprehension, but this does not have to be the case when I get to Taiwan.

Just having a good enough comprehension to completely integrate and switch over to traditional materials is the level I am aiming for.

 

[jannesan]

11 hours ago, matteo said:

May I ask you what your plan is for moving / studying / finding a job etc? 

 

I am finishing my Master in Computer Science this year and I want to get 1-2 years of working experience as a Software Engineer here in the Netherlands first.

Then I would give myself a few weeks/months to fully concentrate on finding a similar job in Taiwan (guess it has to be Taibei).

Haven't thought more about this, I just believe that it is possible.

Plan B could be of course to start with some language study for half year / 1 year to get a Visa and then continue looking for a job during that time.

[Shelley]

1 hour ago, jannesan said:

Hmm, don't you think as I still have more than 2 years before I will be there, improving my general level a bit more before focusing on traditional and differences in word usage

 

I don't think you realise just how easy it is to actually do both at the same time, the difference between word usage is going to something I think you will just have to pick up as you go before and when you are there.

 

Actually learning to recognize and read traditional is not that difficult, most of the time it is something simple like one part of the character is now traditional but the rest is the same. 

One that springs to mind is 课 and 課 , you can see straight away the difference. It is mostly like this. So now all characters with this radical will be the same. Once you have learnt to spot these things it really isn't that difficult.

 

I think this is one reason I suggested starting now, its not that much effort and you will give yourself plenty of time to learn as much as possible.

 

[imron]

7 hours ago, jannesan said:

So you didn't specifically try to memorize any of those characters first that have completely different forms?

Nope.  In some ways it's wasted effort to learn too much first because you don't yet know which ones you are going to see or use the most often.  That's why picking up something and reading it is so useful because it allows you to prioritise things based on the order you encounter them.

 

7 hours ago, jannesan said:

but I was thinking that going through that simplification table first should really pay off in the long run.

That's what I tried to do at first, but none of it really stuck.  Reading was far more effective.  There are only about 200-300 common characters that are significantly different between the two sets, everything else is either an uncommon character that you'll probably never encounter,  a character simplfied in an obvious way (like what Shelley said about 课 and 課) or a character that is the same in both traditional and simplified.

 

7 hours ago, jannesan said:

but I feel that I am at a point where I should fully transition to native material. It's harder but also way more fun and rewarding.

I agree, but then you're also trying to do two things at once - learn harder material *and* learn traditional.  If you go with something like WordSwing, the material is pretty simple so you can devote most of your attention to picking up Traditional.  Even if you have a high level, the stories are still interesting (or at least the one I tried was).

[jannesan]

6 hours ago, Shelley said:

I think this is one reason I suggested starting now, its not that much effort and you will give yourself plenty of time to learn as much as possible.

 

Good point, I think I will give it a not so focused try with some of the easier materials suggested here and see how it goes.

 

3 hours ago, imron said:

There are only about 200-300 common characters that are significantly different between the two sets

 

Sounds to me like it could be very good then to study exactly these characters up front, and have a look at which 偏旁 are usually simplified like the 言 in the 课/課 example.

 

3 hours ago, imron said:

I agree, but then you're also trying to do two things at once - learn harder material *and* learn traditional. 

 

Yes and that's exactly what I want, learning traditional, while at the same time still making progress in learning Chinese in general.

I hope in 1-2 years I can feel a bit more comfortable about my level, so that I can "take some time off" and immerse completely in traditional material.

 

3 hours ago, imron said:

If you go with something like WordSwing, the material is pretty simple so you can devote most of your attention to picking up Traditional.  Even if you have a high level, the stories are still interesting (or at least the one I tried was).

 

I will definitely have a look, I feel like that could be a good strategy for me to start out; read simpler material in traditional while still reading more advanced stuff in simplified.

 

Thanks for your help:)

[ZhangKaiRong]

In my view, you can start switching now - if you are using the traditional character set a lot more, it will stick quicker. I was somewhere inbetween HSK4 and HSK5 when I started to watch Taiwanese TV shows, so you can do it with your level as well. Don't be surprised when your reading speed will be dramatically reduced, it takes a few weeks for your brain to get accustomed to the "new" look of the characters, but you will progress significantly better later on. Now my reading speed is still quicker for simplified characters, but I'm only a bit slower with traditional characters. TV shows are also good for sharpening your listening skills so you can get used to the Taiwanese pronunciation a bit easier. I agree that 口语 differences are not that bad and you can get accustomed to it easier. Pronunciation was way more offputting for me (I kept hearing 饿子 instead of 儿子 :D)

 

For writing, you mean writing by hand? That would be much tougher, but if you're at around HSK4, I understand why you would like to emphasize on that going forward, but it will get tougher even if you're only focusing on simplified characters, to be honest, given the fact that the recommended vocab list is multiplied by two between HSK4 and HSK5, and between HSK5 and HSK6 (and even without focusing on HSK, you will come across a lot of new characters that you need to store in your memory somehow). It may sound blasphemy for the majority of the forum users here, but I firmly believe that it's totally OK not to be able to handwrite every character you can read. It takes way too much effort to build the muscle memory for being able to write, it requires high maintenance and offers little reward on the long-term. It worth considering not to pursue the ability to handwrite traditional characters, especially if you would like to optimize your approach.

[matteo]

11 hours ago, jannesan said:

I am finishing my Master in Computer Science this year and I want to get 1-2 years of working experience as a Software Engineer here in the Netherlands first.

Then I would give myself a few weeks/months to fully concentrate on finding a similar job in Taiwan (guess it has to be Taibei).

Haven't thought more about this, I just believe that it is possible.

Plan B could be of course to start with some language study for half year / 1 year to get a Visa and then continue looking for a job during that time.

 

Based on my personal experience (non-Taiwan specific) in emigrating, I think what you propose to do is possible but I'd say that your schedule is very optimistic. 

As you are close to a level enabling you to use native material, have you considered using these next two years to enroll in a master degree in Taiwan? 

I think that would give you far higher chances to land a entry-level job  there and would force your chinese to improve dramatically. Once you start working, dropping everything and going back to studying is still possible but requires 10x courage.?

 

Best of luck with you plan whatever you end up doing!

 

[imron]

3 hours ago, jannesan said:

Sounds to me like it could be very good then to study exactly these characters up front, and have a look at which 偏旁 are usually simplified like the 言 in the 课/課 example

It's definitely worth having a look at how the different 偏旁 are simplified, but I strongly feel it's not worth trying to memorize the significantly different characters until you encounter them in some text somewhere.  Otherwise it will suck up a bunch of learning time for something that is not going to be directly relevant.

 

There are ~500 characters in total that are significantly different (i.e. can't be guessed) between the two sets.  At HSK4 (the level your profile says you are at), maybe there will only be ~100 that you already know - but you have no way of knowing which 100 they are and no way of knowing which of those 500 are in the 200-300 commonly used ones.

 

If you really want to do it though, here's a list of the significantly different characters.

[jannesan]

13 hours ago, ZhangKaiRong said:

In my view, you can start switching now - if you are using the traditional character set a lot more, it will stick quicker. I was somewhere inbetween HSK4 and HSK5 when I started to watch Taiwanese TV shows, so you can do it with your level as well.

 

Seems to be everyone's opinion here, so I will give it a try. I also just started watching my first Taiwanese show 一千個晚安 (really like it), and I think it's quite understandable (with subtitles).

 

13 hours ago, matteo said:

As you are close to a level enabling you to use native material, have you considered using these next two years to enroll in a master degree in Taiwan? 

I think that would give you far higher chances to land a entry-level job  there and would force your chinese to improve dramatically.

 

I really don't think so actually, 2 years of working experience must be more helpful that 2 years of study, even if in a different country.

If I wasn't already finishing up a Master degree yet then I'd probably consider it.

Besides, I am quite confident that I can reach a 'working proficiency' level of Chinese after 2 more years of studying the language part-time.

Still, thanks for the ideas:)

 

13 hours ago, ZhangKaiRong said:

For writing, you mean writing by hand? That would be much tougher, but if you're at around HSK4, I understand why you would like to emphasize on that going forward, but it will get tougher even if you're only focusing on simplified characters, to be honest, given the fact that the recommended vocab list is multiplied by two between HSK4 and HSK5

12 hours ago, imron said:

There are ~500 characters in total that are significantly different (i.e. can't be guessed) between the two sets.  At HSK4 (the level your profile says you are at), maybe there will only be ~100 that you already know

 

Yea, so far I am learning also how to write all words that I study. It find it very enjoyable and rewarding to write, and even if I'll forget how to write some of them later (which in this digital age seems inevitable) I believe it will still help me with recognition more than if I didn't know how to write them previously.

 

I think my level is more HSK5 nowadays, I have studied all vocabulary from HSK1-5 and I'm in the last chapters of the 标准教程5 textbook.

I have already studied 1000/2500 new words from HSK6 and there are only 260 characters in HSK6 that I haven't studied (I didn't go through the word list, these come from studying vocabulary of books/articles I've read).

 

12 hours ago, imron said:

If you really want to do it though, here's a list of the significantly different characters.

 

Thank you:)

[jannesan]

Thought I'd share a little update:

 

I learned how to write most of the ~500 core characters of the 简化总表 from March to June (and keep reviewing them). This enabled me to read/write all the characters that were simplified. Now I thought great, let's go and dive into some content written in traditional ...., but I discovered that there quite some differences still.

 

They range from slightly different (届 -> 屆) to quite different (异 -> 異).

I believe most of these are 异体字 that were standardized in Mainland in 1955 with the "第一批异体字整理表" and some maybe from the "印刷通用汉字字形表" from 1965.

 

While I should be able to read and comprehend texts written in traditional (if the language is not above my level in general), these differences are a bit annoying and I'm thinking how to approach learning them as well. For simple ones like the above 届 I don't think I need to specifically need extra writing practice, but not all differences are that small. I'm thinking to do some more analysis on the "第一批异体字整理表" and pick a subset to specifically train to write, avoiding double studying characters like 却 & 脚 (卻 & 腳) where one is just a component of the other.

 

Here's a picture of a full sheet of mostly traditional characters (I review both directions in Anki, but only quiz myself on the traditional characters, sometimes also writing out the simplified for contrast).

 

 

I am planning to do a more thorough write-up on the differences between simplified and traditional, potentially with an updated Anki deck extending @renzhe's work from https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/14713-learning-hanzi-the-eternal-dilemma-of-simple-or-traditional/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-154717.

 

Will update when that's done

Edited June 22, 2021 at 06:40 AM by jannesan
Corrected wrong example of 异体字

[imron]

4 hours ago, jannesan said:

While I should be able to read and comprehend texts written in traditional (if the language is not above my level in general), these differences are a bit annoying and I'm thinking how to approach learning them as well.

Train what you want to learn.  You can flashcard all you like, but it's a separate skill from reading that has some overlap but not as much as you'd expect.

 

If you want to be able to read and comprehend Traditional Chinese texts, then you need to do more reading and comprehending of Traditional Chinese texts.

 

Otherwise you'll keep going over and over flashcards and over and over writing characters, and still run in to the same frustrations each time you try to read something.

[jannesan]

5 hours ago, imron said:

Train what you want to learn. 

 

Yea, you're right, but sometimes I'm just not quite sure what is it that I want to focus on most.

I thought with just learning the 简化总表 I can learn how to write all traditional characters that are different than simplified and then write my journal in traditional.

Reading things in traditional is the more important goal, I just thought the effort to learn how to write is not that much higher than learning how to read, so why not invest in it. Now with all the 异体字 (in total up to a 1000 I think, need to dig a bit more into this), the effort of learning how to write becomes much higher suddenly.

 

I'll probably not learn how to write them for now and focus on reading while still keeping up the reviewing of the 简化字. I really believe that the writing practice is also very helpful in retention, so it's not wasted effort even if I decide that being able to write traditional is not a goal I'm after. Now the question will be how to split reading practice among simplified/traditional material.. Probably keep reading novels in simplified and read articles/textbooks in traditional.