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[If_IwasaLinguist]

As the title shows, I am a native Chinese and currently study Linguistics, and both Chinese and English translation at the postgraduate level. 

 

I found this forum via Google Search and it was listed as the first result, which convinced me that this must be the most pupolar one. The reason for creating an account and posting something is to encourage myself to learn more about both English and Chinese, because I need to use English language and knowledge to solve your problems and describe Chinese langauge and knowledge. In my own words, this experience will be like a field trip, in which I can come across lots of questions that may not puzzle native learner while really cause many difficulties for foreign learners. That is simply my original intention. 

 

As for myself, I grew up with reading a number of Chinese literatures, which vary from classic ones to contemporary ones, because I very appreciate the ability of learning life experience from those books. Besides, since I am studying Linguistics, I pay much attention to the usage of languages, that is, English and Chinese. If you are familiar with this subject, I am a functionalist and believe that there are numerous ambiguities and impreciseness during the process of using langauge. Thus, those real-world questions from you may become the key to explain some linguistic phenomenon. In this way, please don't hesitate to ask me questions about either Chinese Linguistics or Literature. I will be very grateful for this mutual learning. 

 

By the way, if this post is in the wrong section, please tell me where I can post for more attention. Much Thanks.

[abcdefg]

Thanks @If_IwasaLinguist and welcome to the forum!

[Dawei3]

14 hours ago, If_IwasaLinguist said:

convinced me that this must be the most pupolar one

We're not just the most popular, we're also the best one 哈哈。

 

14 hours ago, If_IwasaLinguist said:

numerous ambiguities and impreciseness during the process of using langauge. Thus, those real-world questions

这是很有意思。I'll think about what questions might be good.

[If_IwasaLinguist]

@Dawei3, the sayings about ambiguities and impreciseness are part of theories proposed by M. A. K. Halliday, who is a Systemic Functional Linguist. I can share two examples in both English and Chinese with you to prove it. 

 

English: Can you can a can as a canner can can a can? In this setence, the word "can" serves as a modal verb, verb and noun so that this kind of polysemy makes it difficult for us to understand sentences. This is about morphological semantics. 

 

Chinese: 海水朝朝朝朝朝朝朝落；浮云长长长长长长长消。This is the couplet in front of a temple near my hometown. There are seven identical characters in every sentence, although those meanings vary differently. The character "朝" can be pronounced as both chao3 and zhao1, which respectively means rising and morning. Besides, this character "朝" can also represent anathor character "潮" (chao3) in ancient Chinese, which means tide. On the other hand, the character "长" also has two pronunciations that are zhang3 and chang2 and it also represents another character "常" in ancient Chinese. 

 

In addition, these two sentences have more than ten ways of reading and I will introduce the one that I usually read. That is 海水朝(chao3)，朝(zhao1)朝(zhao1)朝(chao3)，朝(zhao1)朝(chao3)朝(zhao1)落；浮云长(zhang3)，长(chang2)长(chang2)长(zhang3)，长(chang2)长(zhang3)长(chang2)消。The rough and not poetic English translation of this way of reading is the tide rises in the morning of everyday while it also ebbs at the end of morning; the cloud gathers in the sky of everywhere while it also fades in the corner of sky. Each way of reading may lead to a different translation of this couplet and if you are interested in it, here is the link for reference: https://zhidao.baidu.com/question/171043310.html. This is about phonological semantics.

 

Do these confuse you during learning Chinese? 

[Moshen]

Welcome to the forum!

 

As a Chinese learner currently around level HSK 5, I find that my biggest challenge with study materials is the extent to which they do not explain the cultural background where a literal translation does not yield the practical meaning.  Only someone who is fluent in both cultures (this involves more than being fluent in both languages) can help.  It amazes me the degree to which courses ignore filling in this kind of background.

 

For example, very early in my Chinese studies I did not understand the word 送, as in seeing someone off at the door.  My Chinese tutor (who did not speak English, this was in China in the 1980s) did her best to explain it, but she clearly thought it was as obvious a concept as table or eat or see.  The trouble was a cultural practice that I was not familiar with at that point.  Chinese people 送 to an extent that Americans don't.  And it would have been nice if someone would have been able to explain the practice to me so I could understand the word.

 

Another example: Recently I have read a couple of Chinese articles about the government running a campaign for people to use special serving chopsticks and spoons when eating together with other people, for better hygiene.  If you didn't already know that in China it's the custom to use your own chopsticks to put food onto the plate of the people you're eating with, the whole article wouldn't make much sense.  The Chinese teacher or lesson preparer needs to know that non-Chinese may not know this cultural fact and it needs to be supplied so the foreigner can understand the context of the literal meaning of all the words involved.

 

I don't know whether this is relevant to you or not, but I wanted to say it in case it is helpful to you.

[If_IwasaLinguist]

@Moshen, thanks for your reply and this lack of cultural background also confuses me when I was reading English literature. For solving this problem, I would put the unfamiliar expression in Google research and tries to figure out with some contexts. And I would like to share one expression that I just now learned from this forum by @889, which is Fiddler on the Roof. At the time of reading it, I googled it and got its metaphorical meaning. Besides, based on my experience, those expressions that seem transparently unrelated with the context are always culturally bounded, like elephant in the room. 

 

Furthermore, as a translation postgraduate, I am often be confused when I read the case analysis section of others' academic papers because those authors only simply explained some translations are good enough with such evidences, something like "this cultural terms are unfamiliar to foreign readers so that they are translated in a paraphrased way for their better understanding". Then, my question is how to decide which cultural terms are unfamilliar and to what extent foreign readers are unfamilliar. Since the translator as well as the author of some academic papers is the native speaker of only one language, how does s/he know whether foreign readers wouldn't know some cultural terms. In my opinion, with the development of cultural exchange between China and the West, we, Chinese readers have figured out that dragon represents evil and red refers to angry in the West culture, which are contrary to the Chinese culture. Therefore, foreign readers, after their extensive readings of Chinese things, may also understand a lot, which is still wrongly presupposed by Chinese scholars. 

[Moshen]

Fiddler on the Roof comes from a well-known American Broadway musical and movie.  It's explained within the show/movie.  I don't believe it had any cultural meaning in Western culture - or Yiddish culture, which is actually the origin of that show/movie) prior to that show/movie.  I remember that I needed the explanation within the show/movie to understand it, and I am a native English speaker.

 

That is comparable to the expression "the catcher in the rye," which is the title of a well-known American novel.  The expression is explained within the novel.  It is not something anyone knowing the English language would have been able to guess without the explanation, but now because the novel is so famous you might see the expression used apart from the novel, with the same meaning.

[anonymoose]

44 minutes ago, Moshen said:

Chinese people 送 to an extent that Americans don't.

 

Sorry for the off-topic post, but I've seen this mentioned on this forum before. I'm curious by what you mean by this. In the US, if you have a visitor to your home, when they leave, do you just remain where you are (in the living room, say), and let them walk out by themselves? As far as I can tell, in the UK, we 送 people in the same way as in China.

[If_IwasaLinguist]

I see and I should classify this kind of expressions coming from some uncultural but well-known sources as intertextuality, which is interpreted by me as some terms appearing in other literatures are used to express the one specific meaning for achieving the one specific communication purpose. And in Chinese we call it as 梗 and in the popular online language it is called 阴阳, since the surface meaning and deep meaning are somehow different like Yin and Yang.

 

Let me think of an example of 梗 in Chinese literature or movie. There was one saying that once got popular online "我买几个橘子去，你就站在此地，不要走动。” (I am going to buy some oranges and you stay here without wandering). It is quoted from Back View (背影, translated into English by me, not official) written by Zhu Ziqing. The background of this sentence is that the narrator's father was about to send him to take the train, and the father wanted to buy some oranges for him to eat on the road before leaving. Then, it is used recently to mean that the speaker is the listener's father since the original one was said by the father to his son. That is an intertextuality, which can be understood after reading the source. 

[anonymoose]

1 minute ago, If_IwasaLinguist said:

Then, it is used recently to mean that the speaker is the listener's father since the original one was said by the father to his son.

 

But what does this mean? What is meant when Chinese people say 我是你爸?

[If_IwasaLinguist]

Just now, anonymoose said:

when Chinese people say 我是你爸?

Yes, actually it is a vague expression. And I assume the communication purpose of saying like that is to show that I hold one level higher than your identity cause I am your father, but I also dont want to express it directly. Then, I borrow the saying from one literature to vaguely express myself. 

 

Another similar saying is that "我给你妈种了一棵枇杷树" (I planted a loquat tree for your mother.) It comes from another piece of literary work named 项脊轩志 written by 归有光. In that work, there is one sentence like 庭有枇杷樹，吾妻死之年所手植也，今已亭亭如盖矣。(There is a loquat tree in the courtyard, which was planted by my wife when she died.) Then, this saying is used to mean that 你妈死了 (your mother has died), which is a really dirty expression. For using this one, I assume the communication purpose is to show I'm scolding you, but I don't want to speak too straightforward dirty words. 

[anonymoose]

A quick and random question:

 

How do you explain 以备不时之需 in

 

Quote

对于许多食谱来说，水的沸点都太高了，必须将温度降低一些才能正确烹饪食物。您需要将液体煮沸，而不是让它们沸腾以备不时之需。

Source

According to the dictionary, this would be "to provide for a rainy day", but that doesn't really make sense in the context.

[If_IwasaLinguist]

@anonymoose, that is an idiom and literally means to prepare for the possible need appearing at any time. And also I found a website page, on which a similar explanation with yours is provided saying "against a rainy day". I think this is an English idiom but in terms of translation, it is functionally equivalent to another Chinese chengyu 未雨绸缪, which literally means before it rains, to repair the doors and windows of the house first. 

[咖乐]

@If_IwasaLinguist

 

I just posted the following question(s) in another thread (about 会 vs 能), and since I don't know if there are any rules about "double posts" (@admin if there are, please just remove this one), I figured I'd ask you as well ?

 

- - -

 

The following 3 constructions would all seem to express meanings that correspond to English "can":

 

(1)  会 + [verb (+ ...)] expresses that the predicate that follows is something that one *can* do because you've learned how to do it, as in 我会开车. (Let's leave the "future tense"/"probability"-meaning out, for simplicity's sake).

 

(2)  能 + [verb (+ ...)] expresses that the predicate that follows is something one *can* do because the current circumstances allow it (i.e., you're *able* to do it), as in (因为需要加班) 他不能来 

 

(3)  [verb] + 得 + [predicate], as in 她跑得快, expresses *potential*, in the sense that one is capable of doing something. (As far as I can tell, this kind of "得-construction" can (no pun intended) actually expresses several different meanings, like "result", "degree", and, as in this case, "potential").

 

 

My questions are the following:

 

(A)  To me, the sense of "can" expressed by (1) and (3) seem very similar, if not even close to identical; is the difference between (1) and (3) merely syntactical?

 

 

(B) I have seen posts claiming that 很会 + [verb] expresses a meaning along the lines of "can do something well"; would/could, hence, the meanings expressed by the two kinds of constructions used in (b1) and (b2) be considered synonymous?

 

(b1) 你很会写汉子

 

(b2) 你汉子写得很好

 

 

(Nb., by "predicate" I mean either verb, adjective, or (maybe) even adjective taking on an adverbial meaning).

 

 

Thanks in advance!