International Chinese Language Program (ICLP) - 5 years later

[The Dumpling King]

Most reviews of Chinese language programs focus on reflections immediately after the student finished. I instead want to share my review of ICLP 5 years later now that I am in the workforce, in the US, and do not always use Chinese formally. I believe this is particularly important because the majority of Chinese language learners unfortunately do not have the luxury - or desire - to live or work in China/Taiwan/etc. for an extended period of time. How does ICLP prepare you for a life of using Chinese?

 

https://iclp.ntu.edu.tw/

 

Summary:

 

ICLP helped me bridge the gap from conversational Chinese to native material. I will remember my year in Taiwan as one of my favorite chapters in life. I now have friendships with people only in Chinese and even interviewed for a job in Chinese. I owe this to the intensity of ICLP and its principles. I believe it is important for people to have as much information as possible before deciding to take time out of their life (and money) to move to a foreign country and study a language. I can comfortably and confidentially use Chinese professionally, even years later. ICLP was integral to helping me get there. 

 

Why ICLP: 

 

I went to ICLP because I wanted:

1. To sound educated/professional when speaking Chinese
   1. I did not major in Chinese in undergrad or grad school; studying Chinese was always a part time endeavor
2. Bridge the gap to native material
3. Learn traditional characters 
4. Experience life in a Chinese society outside of the PRC

 

Chinese level before ICLP:

 

I had taken and passed HSK 5 (max 6) a year before attending ICLP. I believe that equates to ~1500 characters. However, my vocabulary was a bit more expansive because I lived in China. In undergrad, I studied two semesters of Chinese (Integrated Chinese textbook series) followed by a semester of study abroad in China. The next 2-3 years were completely self study and work with a tutor. I mostly used the BLCU textbooks for self study with tutor. Needless to say, I did not have much formal training.

 

I lived in China for ~2 years before attending ICLP. I quickly realized I could start a conversation but had difficulty continuing it. Therefore, I focused less on grammar and simply crammed vocabulary so I could communicate most effectively - difficult to measure language “level” this way. I had also stopped using Anki and flash card because of time constraints. By the time I enrolled at ICLP, I was very conversational and handled my Taiwan Visa at the TECO office in person using Chinese. I could read the People’s Daily fairly comfortably. I spent a week a friend’s house for Spring Festival and was able to follow along with most of the 春晚 broadcast and talk to them about it. TV shows like 爱情公寓 and novels/books were challenging because of the unknown vocabulary. I would pick up a book and get discouraged after a chapter and the same after an episode or two or a show. I was right at the cusp of native material and wanted to take a year at ICLP to make substantial progress.

 

I hope this helps assess where I was heading into the program.

 

ICLP review: 

 

Placement test: 

 

The placement test is fairly straightforward with both a written and spoken portion. The written portion is multiple choice fill in the blank and gets progressively more difficult. Everyone takes the same test and most don't score 100%. It also serves as an exit exam and the person with the greatest score increase at the end of the year wins an award. The spoken portion is with two teachers. I do not believe the details of these exams are particular important because it is important to start at the appropriate level. Many students are disappointed with their placement and believe they should be a level higher. I had similar feelings as I knew >90% of the vocab and grammar in the text. However, everyone ultimately understands that they started in the right place. The program is difficult and its important that you truly know and internalize what you think you know when starting on day one.

 

Teaching methods:

 

You will be speaking all class, not listening to the teacher lecture at you. For those familiar with the method, its a flipped classroom. Your teacher will tell you what section of the text will be covered in the next class. You are expected to review the text, vocab, and grammar ahead of class. You will not be able to reference the text, your phone, or dictionary during class. You focus on using the grammar structure, using key vocab correctly, and then talk about the text and your own views on it. I don't want to use the word "drill" because the class is ultimately one big conversation. The thought is: if you can speak well, you can write well. Just because you can write well, doesn't mean you can speak well. I believe this approach to be ideal. For example, there are no final exams, only mid-term exams. "Finals" are a 3-5 min speech/presentation given to the program.

 

Yes other programs are cheaper and use the same textbooks. However, ICLP's value is its pedagogy. They also train other Chinese language teachers. 

 

Group classes:

 

Three of your four classes will be small group classes of 3-4 students. You have one core class using the core text for that level and two "elective" classes. These range from TV news, to short stories, to classical Chinese. You will need 3 students interested in taking the elective course for it to be offered. Happy lobbying. You can "stretch" your chinese by taking an elective a level up from your core class (sometimes). I do not recommend this. You will have ~50 new words a day per class and 5-10 new grammar patterns. You will have enough to cover. the program is structured effectively so no need to be over-ambitious because you want to squeeze out every minute of every dollar of the program. Your teacher and classmates will get upset if you're slowing down the class.

 

Overall the classes are fun...if and only if you are prepared. You get to know your classmates and teacher using Chinese. You're not parroting the text or drilling mindlessly. The teachers try to have a dialogue where you answer questions using certain vocab or grammar. Its nice to get into discussions about your thoughts on a text, related current events, or about students in your course. I personally found this to be a really rewarding environment because classroom content was more about using and thinking in Chinese vs memorizing a text. The best teachers do this very well.

 

One-on-one:

 

Through the 500-level core class (思想與社會), your one-on-one will be used to supplement and re-enforce the content in your core class. The teacher has a curriculum of stuff to cover even during on-on-one. If you have a firm grasp of the material, you can really use the rest of the hour to make it your own. From 600 and above, the one-on-one is entirely at your discretion. I often sent my teacher long-form newspaper or magazine articles ahead of time. We then used the class time to discuss. Other students (eg. PhD) will use this time to dive into research material.

 

Textbooks:

 

思想與社會 is their bread and butter. It's used elsewhere in Taiwan and there is a version used at IUP in Beijing as well. Some textbooks are written by ICLP and others are 3rd party (lower levels). Some students have reservations about outdated texts and one or two books with some typos. I personally think these reservations are fairly trivial. Yes, you don't want to speak/write as someone from a past generation, but your textbooks should not be your only input method, especially in a native environment like Taiwan. The register of the material is more formal/learned and for their intended intended purpose, I think they're top notch. You will need to supplement textbooks for informal/colloquial vocab and grammar patterns.

 

Program community:

 

I made some of my best friends in life through ICLP. Its a great opportunity to be around many like-minded people from all over the world doing the same thing. While in the ICLP building, one must speak Chinese. However, English does tend to dominate the discussion outside of class. I did have relationships with some classmates primarily in Chinese outside of class. The two largest cohorts are American and British. Students range from undergraduates studying abroad, graduate students, mid-career professionals, academics, and everything in between. The teachers all want you to succeed and even take your learning personally at times. It was the most supportive academic environment I have experienced. 

 

Cost:

 

Non-Americans will have sticker shock. American students often think the program is affordable compared to US tuition. As long as you are clear what you want out of the program going in, you will not have buyers remorse. I recommend applying for the Huayu Enrichment Scholarship. I was able to live off the 25K NTD per month but had to budget accordingly - rent and food. Tuition, travel, and nights out were out of my own budget.

 

Living in Taiwan:

 

Taipei/Taiwan is a nice native environment for learning Chinese. I lived in Northeast China immediately before attending ICLP - which is great for "standard mandarin" as many on this forum attest. However, I found Taipei great for daily life as a student. It was much easier to just "plug in" and use Chinese in daily interactions. Plenty of coffee shops to study near/off campus. The coffee shop culture in Taipei's alleys is actually pretty great if that's your thing. Hiking and weekend trips are easy. Some classmates even rented a van to drive to a music festival.

 

ICLP can be intense during the week if you really buckle down and study. I appreciated how easy it was to get out of the city and go hiking, go to the coast, or even fly to HK for a quick getaway. The metro can even get you to some pretty great spots. The urban sprawl of some Chinese cities makes this a bit more difficult, but still doable. Several of my friends would go elsewhere in Asia too over holidays, namely the Philippines. 

 

ICLP takeaways:

 

Who should attend: 

 

IUP in Beijing has a minimum 2-year Chinese pre-requisite. You can start at ICLP as a complete beginner - I believe this is a business decision. The program is best used to polish your Chinese and take it to the "next level" for formal/learned/professional uses. The return on investment is greatest for advanced learners who can already pick up a paper, turn on the tv and get the gist, and have a conversation. Its arguably one of the best place for classical chinese as well. Because beginners don't always have a feel for the rhythm of the language, you risk sounding too mechanical/formal after time at ICLP. 

 

What the program is not: 

 

Don't attend ICLP if your main focus is colloquial Chinese. Slang and colloquial speech simply isn't the focus of the program. On this forum and others, you will find mentions of ICLP students speaking like a textbook. I believe the ability to pick up a book, read a newspaper, give a speech, or talk about complex ideas is much more valuable in the long run than simply chatting and making friends. 

 

Strong foundation: 

 

I've been in the US since ICLP. Any language learner fears "losing" their progress, especially after investing the years that Chinese requires. The programs helps build a foundation that I often compare to Mad Libs; the structure is there and I just fill it in with new vocab as needed. Years later and I am able to maintain my Chinese because ICLP helped me bridge the gap to native material. I cannot overstate how incredibly important it is to enter native material if you're not living in Greater China. Your world expands infinitely when you can dive into books, tv, novels, apps, personal relationships, etc. in Chinese. I can turn on the TV or read a Chinese newspaper years after leaving ICLP - exactly what I knew I would get from the program. 

Edited November 10, 2020 at 07:13 PM by The Dumpling King
Added content for “before” ICLP

[abcdefg]

@The Dumpling King -- 

 

Very clear analysis and description. Thanks. And now, how about some tips on making dumplings? 

[Jim]

Great post! Just the sort of thing I'd want to read if I was considering the course.

[Jan Finster]

This is a very nice review.

 

If I may add a suggestion: it would help the reader if you could edit your post and include a paragraph on your Chinese experience before going to ICLP (your level, HSK level (?), known character count; what kind of material were you able to read prior to going there) 

[The Dumpling King]

2 hours ago, Jan Finster said:

 

If I may add a suggestion: it would help the reader if you could edit your post and include a paragraph on your Chinese experience before going to ICLP (your level, HSK level (?), known character count; what kind of material were you able to read prior to going there) 

 

Will do. Great suggestion.

[Tomsima]

Thanks for putting in so much effort writing this - I did at one stage seriously consider the programme, but it was just out of my budget in the end. The level of detail does also been the question: were you asked to post by ICLP? I don't think there was any disclosure on this, and it's not necessarily a good or bad thing, just would be nice to know for reference.

[The Dumpling King]

12 minutes ago, Tomsima said:

Thanks for putting in so much effort writing this - I did at one stage seriously consider the programme, but it was just out of my budget in the end. The level of detail does also been the question: were you asked to post by ICLP? I don't think there was any disclosure on this, and it's not necessarily a good or bad thing, just would be nice to know for reference.

 

Totally a fair question. I was not asked by anybody at ICLP or affiliated to post this. I was simply reflecting on life a little bit and decided to post. I relied on this forum a lot when studying Chinese and making study abroad decisions. There is little information about ICLP and IUP, especially for those outside of academic programs, and thought I would contribute.

 

There are shortcomings with any program. I hope I made that somewhat clear regarding my references to formal vs colloquial Chinese, intensity, and cost. ?

[Guest realmayo]

Do you mind saying which level you started at in your first term?

[The Dumpling King]

13 minutes ago, realmayo said:

Do you mind saying which level you started at in your first term?

 

I started at the 400 level - Talks on Chinese Culture. This is an intermediate text at ICLP and is used elsewhere in Taipei I believe. As I said in my main post, I knew most of the vocab and grammar already - big blow to my ego going from "advanced" books to an "intermediate" course. However, after self study, I really needed to consolidate and polish what I had learned. My electives were 500 level. I actually always took electives one level higher.

 

Second term was 500 level - Thought and Society. I also took a Classical Chinese course this term. My Chinese really progressed this term.

 

Third term was 600 level - Aspects of Life in Taiwan. People take different core classes at 600 level and above. I was able to begin bridging into native material this term.

 

ICLP uses the quarter system. The fourth term is the summer term.

[The Dumpling King]

9 hours ago, abcdefg said:

And now, how about some tips on making dumplings?

 

Its definitely all in the flour you use! Don't think you can substitute. Thats true for everything from 饺子 to 汤圆. The filling is the "easy" part IMHO. I think the wrapper/skin/etc makes the dumpling like good bread makes a good sandwich.

[Guest realmayo]

13 hours ago, The Dumpling King said:

I started at the 400 level

 

Interesting. I spend two months in the summer there a few years ago, at the Thought and Society level. Would love to have done a full year - maybe in the future....

[Tomsima]

13 hours ago, The Dumpling King said:

Don't think you can substitute.

Dropping the true knowledge bombs!

[wibr]

Thanks for the interesting read, stuff like this is why I like this forum.

On 11/10/2020 at 1:54 AM, The Dumpling King said:

You can "stretch" your chinese by taking an elective a level up from your core class (sometimes). I do not recommend this.

16 hours ago, The Dumpling King said:

I actually always took electives one level higher.

So... not recommended but doing it anyway?

 

[abcdefg]

On 11/10/2020 at 5:15 PM, The Dumpling King said:

Its definitely all in the flour you use! Don't think you can substitute.

 

Thanks! That's interesting. I realize that dumplings are not the main thrust of this thread, but if you feel inclined to expand on the topic, I and several others would be eager to read what you have to say in a separate post in the Food and Drink section of the forum. 

 

Here is a link. https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/forum/11-food-and-drink/ 

 

When living in China I was always an indifferent dumpling maker, I never excelled at it. Sometimes I made my own wrappers and other times I bought them from a vendor at the nearby neighborhood wet market who made round 饺子皮 and square 馄饨皮 every morning fresh. Five Yuan would buy enough for a large batch (sold by weight.)

 

When making the wrappers from scratch, I just used All Purpose flour 多用途面粉 from the supermarket. Your comment makes me wonder if I should have been using a high-gluten flour 高筋面粉 instead, perhaps searching out flour ground from "hard" northern 东北 wheat. 

 

 

[The Dumpling King]

4 hours ago, wibr said:

So... not recommended but doing it anyway?

 

Good catch! Do as I say and not as I do. I say not recommended based on my experience and feedback from classmates.

 

First term was not a problem as I was really consolidating/polishing what I already knew. However, by my third term I bit off more than I could chew and it caught up with me. I got a little burnt out keeping up with all of my classes and was happy I did not to a 4th summer term.

 

7 hours ago, realmayo said:

20 hours ago, The Dumpling King said:

I started at the 400 level

 

Interesting. I spend two months in the summer there a few years ago, at the Thought and Society level. Would love to have done a full year - maybe in the future...

 

How was your experience?

Yeah I was not happy at the time starting at the 400 level. However, by the end of the year I was satisfied with my progress and had no regrets.

 

 

[Guest realmayo]

14 hours ago, The Dumpling King said:

How was your experience?

 

At the time I was a bit disappointed because I didn't feel I got as much benefit to my spoken Chinese as I'd expected: the Thought & Society textbook was easy from a grammar/vocab point of view but I'd barely spoken any Chinese at all for the previous few years so was a bit out of my depth trying to contribute with coherent and structured sentences in the actual classes.

 

However a couple of months later I realised that, spookily, just that one summer term at ICLP had made reading Chinese easier by a huge step or two, very gratifying. And - perhaps echoing what you wrote at the top - those improvements didn't seem to really fade away much over time.