Intuitive conversion from third tone to second tone

[i__forget]

Can anyone share tips on how to convert, when speaking at natural speed/rhythm, the third tone to the second, when two third tones appear on the sides of word boundaries?

Example:
发表讲话

When saying 发表, right before saying this word, am I supposed to think that the next word I will pronounce is 讲话 so I can change the tone of 表 from third to second? And am I suppose to do all this within a nanosecond so I can keep a natural rhythm? And apply this to any possible combination of words (I can't possibly learn by heart all possible expressions where this rule applies so I can internalize the tone and not have to think about it, that sounds nuts).

Help!

[Flickserve]

You don't need to think.

 

With enough exposure and repetition of sentences, you will get the feel of speaking it intuitively.

 

We are taking about a hundred or more repetitions for different sentences.

[889]

Don't overthink this. At some point your ear will start to tell you that two third-tones in a row sounds bad.

 

Almost exactly the way English students come to learn that "a apple" sounds bad. Same sort of thinking in advance required, even for native speakers. Yet no big deal, is it.

[Jan Finster]

5 hours ago, i__forget said:

When saying 发表, right before saying this word, am I supposed to think that the next word I will pronounce is 讲话 so I can change the tone of 表 from third to second? And am I suppose to do all this within a nanosecond so I can keep a natural rhythm? And apply this to any possible combination of words (I can't possibly learn by heart all possible expressions where this rule applies so I can internalize the tone and not have to think about it, that sounds nuts).

 

4 hours ago, 889 said:

that two third-tones in a row sounds bad.

 

I am not sure this 100% is correct.

We have had this topic many times on this forum and it was noted by some (also by my teacher, who is not on this forum) that 2 third tones do not always ask for a sandhi. When the consecutive third tones involve separate words, it has to do with "meaning groups":

https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/2240-how-does-the-third-tone-change/?do=findComment&comment=19593

 

I have also heard speakers on TCB and Chinesepod say two third tones in a row in those instances.

 

Edit: 

I guess no one would say 以 in a second tone, right?:  你可以准备

 

[i__forget]

50 minutes ago, Jan Finster said:

你可以准备

以 should be second according to my knowledge

[Flickserve]

1 hour ago, i__forget said:

以 should be second according to my knowledge

 

Try

 

你  可以  准备

发表  讲话

 

 

When you ask a native speaker to say these words, try to note the rhythm and shadow the rhythm. That's something you don't get by simply reading by yourself, hence it's essential to listen more and shadow.

[889]

A comment on another board addresses "in a row" succinctly: "You do two third tones in a row ❲if❳ there is no 'in a row' feel."

 

https://tw.forumosa.com/t/wo3-and-ni3-dont-undergo-tone-sandhi/177992/25

[EnergyReaper]

7 hours ago, Jan Finster said:

I guess no one would say 以 in a second tone, right?:  你可以准备

Everyone may have their own habits.

When I read  电影快开始了，你可以准备入场了 at my habitual speed and rhythm, I prefer to read it like 你+ 可以准备入场了. In this way,  I pronounce 以 in a second tone. But sometimes, I may choose to read it like 你可以+准备入场了,  and 以 sounds in a third tone.

 

Another example 我总是想起她离开的那一天。

Usually, I will read 我总是 as a unit in tones of 2-3-4. But when I want to stress 我 and then pause for two seconds, it may change into 3-3-4.

 

@i__forget Try to talk with native speakers more and more, and you will form your own habits.

 

[Jan Finster]

Here is another one I heard today on Chinesepod: 你找我有事儿吗 (both 我 and 有 were spoken with third tone)

[i__forget]

Is Chinesepod a good place to search for comparisons? If they speak slowly they may just turn those 2nd tones to 3rd? Not saying they are wrong, only that I don't know how trustworthy they are for questions like this. Also, 我 being 我 I remember them saying that both tones are correct in situations like that. In general I think what was said above about 'in-a-row feel' makes sense to me!

[EnergyReaper]

I believe websites like Chinesepod will teach Chinese according to the latest grammar rules. If you are Chinese beginner, I think following the strict rules is better. But when you are more fluent and talk with native speakers more and more, you will know some rule-breaking is also natural and some is unacceptable.

 

 

Like 你找我有事儿吗? I often speak 我 in a 2nd tone, and people won't misunderstand me, and I also hear some other native speakers speak in this way, so I know it's natural and acceptable.

But think about 你找鲁有事儿吗? （鲁 is a surname. In my office, one of my fellows likes to only call surnames）

If you speak 鲁 in a 2nd tone, that may be confusing and the listener may ask you to say it again.

 

Another point:

I agree with what @Jan Finster said about "meaning groups".

e.g. If someone asks me to read 久打骨显打米虎左, I will be completely confused because I can't split it into "meaning groups". But when he tells me 久打骨显 and 米虎左 are two people's name translated from a foreign language, and 打 is a verb here, then I can quickly read it according to my habit. And it's normal that another native speaker may read this sentence different from me, because they are still new words and have no so-called standard pronunciation yet.

[889]

There's another point.

 

A third tone has a rise only if it's being emphasized or before a pause at the end of a phrase or sentence, etc. Otherwise, it's just that initial low glug, sometimes called a half third tone. And what sounds really bad is glug-glug: two half third tones one right after the other. To avoid a glug-glug you have to climb a hill after the first glug to separate it from the next.

 

Now when an initial third tone character isn't sounded as a half tone glug for good reason but with the full third tone rising at the end, then you'll also have a hill separating the two third tones.

 

Compare:

 

我找你。

 

我找你。

 

With the ear focusing mainly on the rising intonation, you might not clearly distinguish a second tone 我 from a full third tone 我 in those two sentences.

 

[EnergyReaper]

Personally, I never care about the rising part of a 3rd tone when I listen. When I hear the so-called half third tone, it's enough to me. In fact, I am not confident to distinguish whether someone has spoken the rising part of a 3rd tone.

I know a famous investor Jim Rogers'  daughters can speak more standard Mandarin than many native speakers. You can give a try to see when they speak the full 3rd tone in this video: 

播音员级别！美国金融大鳄罗杰斯的两个女儿普通话真的太标准了！

[Jan Finster]

Here another one from Chinesepod: 你的信用卡有密码吗 (both 卡 and 有 spoken in third tone)