Learning Path Questions Intermediate (HSK 3-4 to Advanced) + Goal Setting

[FiveFighter]

Hi Everyone,

 

I'm a long-time follower of this forum and decided to sign-up as I need your input:

 

I have 1,5 years till I will visit China again 

• already did a semester abroad in 2. half 2019 in Beijing
• in 1,5 year I will go back - this time for a full degree in Business (Double Degree, 1st year 2021-2022 in Europe, 2nd year 2022-2023 in China)

 

How should my learning path for the next 1,5 years look like?

Background: just finished HSK 3 + already know 1/3 of HSK 4 Vocab

Goals: 

• be somewhere between HSK 4-5 before going back to China
• use my 1 year in China to the fullest extent to reach "conversational" + finish HSK 5 in China

 

 

Learning Path Questions:

 

1.) Besides the HSK 4 Textbooks + Workbooks, current ChinesePod + TheChairmansBao subscriptions and Skritter for character learning:

a. What resources can you recommend for the next 1,5 years / especially for the HSK 4+ level?

(I heard following the HSK 5 material is not as efficient as following the HSK 1-4 materials so I'm looking for alternatives)

b. How should I structure my self-study routine? (Split between Reading & Listening?; Speaking?, Writing??)

 

2.) Is it necessary to practice speaking for now (e.g. on italki) or can I neglect it for the next 1,5 years and then focus on speaking again when back in China?

(I feel like my ability to speak/write is quite behind, as I basically self-studied from mid HSK 2 to end HSK 3; didn't speak Mandarin at all since back in Europe)

Are lessons on italki enough (in terms of audio quality) to get feedback regarding my pronunciation or should I book live 1-on-1 lessons here in Europe?

 

3.) What goals seem realistic for me (full-time Business student, next 1.5 years in Europe, then 1 year in China, who just finished HSK 3, 1/3 towards HSK 4)?

- reach HSK 4-5 before going back to China? (1.5 years time)

- reach 'conversational' for daily life / small talk + finish HSK 5 after 1 year in China? (2.5 years time)

 

The ultimate goal would be understanding the business part of the newspaper / discussing the Chinese economy with an educated local (I know it's not achievable in 2.5 years, just want to put it out there. How many more years do you think are necessary for that - assuming I stay in China after graduation, so with best conditions?)

 

Thanks a lot for your input!

 

[Guest realmayo]

9 hours ago, FiveFighter said:

2.) Is it necessary to practice speaking for now (e.g. on italki) or can I neglect it for the next 1,5 years and then focus on speaking again when back in China?

 

Really interesting question.

 

I think it's fair to say that most people practice speaking in order to achieve two aims: (a) to get good at speaking, and (b) to internalise recently learned vocab and grammar.

 

So the first question would be: how much progress would you really make at improving your speaking (pronunciation, fluency, recall) with just an hour or two of online italki a week?

 

If your pronunciation isn't great, my guess is that time spent with a teacher improving pronuncation wouldn't allow much time for improving fluency and active use of vocab and grammar. But if your pronunciation isn't great and you didn't focus on improving it, but just focused on vocab/grammar, you might concretize or fossilize bad pronunciation habits which could take years to eradicate in the future.

 

My hunch - just my point of view - is you could sacrifice speaking time now and instead put extra effort into listening: really focused, intensive listening where you get appropriate audio and some software that allows you to repeat and repeat individual phrases and try your hardest to work out what they're saying, or at least to write out in pinyin the sounds you're hearing, before eventually reading the text to find out if you were right or not. And redo the same listening passage again several times in the future too.

 

If you spent the next 1.5 years making sure that your study routine included knowing all the audio of a textbook (or several textbooks) extremely thoroughly, almost by heart, then when you eventually get to China you could work through that textbook with a teacher, focusing entirely on related speaking exercises.

 

However there's also an argument for regular italki classes now, where you focus on pronunciation, to try to accurately match what you're hearing with what the sounds your voice is able to produce. Like you, I'd be interested to know if other people have found online classes good enough for strict pronunciation practice.

 

 

[Jan Finster]

I would say it depends on how busy you are with your Business studies (?) How many hours can you dedicate to Chinese per week? Are you expected to communicate orally once you go back to China. If so, at what level?

 

Starting from HSK 3, 1.5 years should be plenty to finish HSK 5 before you go back to China. Personally, I would focus on reading and listening and on trying to learn as many words and characters as possible before you do back to China. Once in China, I would then go full immersion and try to activate that passive vocabulary. Maybe you can go back to China a few weeks before your classes start and take 1:1 lessons to get your speaking up to speed (?)

[blackfalcon]

On 1/26/2021 at 3:44 PM, FiveFighter said:

Is it necessary to practice speaking for now (e.g. on italki) or can I neglect it for the next 1,5 years and then focus on speaking again when back in China?

(I feel like my ability to speak/write is quite behind, as I basically self-studied from mid HSK 2 to end HSK 3; didn't speak Mandarin at all since back in Europe)

Are lessons on italki enough (in terms of audio quality) to get feedback regarding my pronunciation or should I book live 1-on-1 lessons here in Europe?

 

In my personal opinion, I do not think that you should completely neglect speaking, or at least I think it's important to have some feedback from a native. I think lessons on Italki are definitely enough,  as long as the lessons are productive. One thing I do with my tutor which really helps is make sentences beforehand with a few words I learned (any ones I choose), and then in the class we look over them together and she corrects my mistakes. Doing this can feel frustrating, but over time I find that my constructed sentences become better and better.

 

However, my situation might be different than yours, and you may not have enough time, and just want to focus on reading/listening instead. For learning Chinese with maximum efficiency, I feel one of the best ways is base your study on these methods that Imron wrote about (really amazing write-ups), and as he says, set aside a certain amount of time each day, and make them a habit. This really helped me.

 

On 1/26/2021 at 3:44 PM, FiveFighter said:

Besides the HSK 4 Textbooks + Workbooks, current ChinesePod + TheChairmansBao subscriptions and Skritter for character learning:

a. What resources can you recommend for the next 1,5 years / especially for the HSK 4+ level?

I used Pleco graded readers, Du Chinese and other graded readers for reading. Mandarin Corner for listening practice, and 非诚勿扰 for listening practice and learning "popular" words. 

[FiveFighter]

Thanks for the answers & suggestions!

Especially the links @blackfalcon!

 

On 1/27/2021 at 4:18 AM, Jan Finster said:

How many hours can you dedicate to Chinese per week? Are you expected to communicate orally once you go back to China. If so, at what level?

...

Maybe you can go back to China a few weeks before your classes start and take 1:1 lessons to get your speaking up to speed (?)

 

My degree in China is completely in English, so from a studying perspective there is no need.

 

But I want to work in China later on - as my girlfriend (local) is currently doing her PhD in Beijing.

 

My next internship this spring (April - June) will have avg. working hours from 9am - 1am (yes you are reading correctly).

Next year in summer that will probably be the same, so unfortunately I cannot spend my summer in China.

 

The rest of the next 1,5 years I'll have 2-4h/day for studying.

 

It will definitely be a tough grind

 

 

On 1/27/2021 at 1:42 AM, realmayo said:

However there's also an argument for regular italki classes now, where you focus on pronunciation, to try to accurately match what you're hearing with what the sounds your voice is able to produce. Like you, I'd be interested to know if other people have found online classes good enough for strict pronunciation practice.

 

Does someone have an opinion on that?

[Flickserve]

You better practice listening. You are not going to get anywhere with speaking or attending lectures if you don't have listening skills to understand what people are saying to you.

[Jan Finster]

6 hours ago, FiveFighter said:

But I want to work in China later on....

 

My next internship this spring (April - June) will have avg. working hours from 9am - 1am (yes you are reading correctly).

 

Well, this should give you a glimpse of your later working life in China. Just kidding.... (or am I?) ?

 

6 hours ago, FiveFighter said:

On 1/26/2021 at 6:42 PM, realmayo said:

However there's also an argument for regular italki classes now, where you focus on pronunciation, to try to accurately match what you're hearing with what the sounds your voice is able to produce. Like you, I'd be interested to know if other people have found online classes good enough for strict pronunciation practice.

 

Does someone have an opinion on that?

 

How can pronunciation classes be wrong? You could read a text at home several times and then spend the online class just reading the text to your tutor and asking for feedback on your pronunciation and tone. I would however, very strongly suggest to invest in a professional language tutor with a degree in teaching Chinese language for that purpose. So, no community tutor or "Ph.D. in mechanical engineering" tutor, etc.  

[Guest realmayo]

32 minutes ago, Jan Finster said:

How can pronunciation classes be wrong?

 

1. Are they significantly less effective over the internet versus face-to-face? I don't just mean the possibility of poor audio quality of time lag. My experience of one-to-one face-to-face pronunciation classes was that the personal cues from the student and teacher interacting were very important: both in terms of working out exactly where a prounciation problem was, and in terms of both parties somehow agreeing on how good is "good enough" before moving onto the next sentence.

 

2. Is one or two hours a week good enough or would it give the student false confidence? With the result that the student is reading a text at home several times but reading it badly, thereby reinforcing pronunciation errors that the online teacher doesn't have enough time to correct each week.

 

Several years ago I had weeks of one-to-one face-to-face pronunciation classes in China. Then I tried one or two classes per week, online, with the same teacher. The online ones didn't feel anything like as successful as the face to face ones.

[Jan Finster]

31 minutes ago, realmayo said:

1. Are they significantly less effective over the internet versus face-to-face? I don't just mean the possibility of poor audio quality of time lag. My experience of one-to-one face-to-face pronunciation classes was that the personal cues from the student and teacher interacting were very important: both in terms of working out exactly where a prounciation problem was, and in terms of both parties somehow agreeing on how good is "good enough" before moving onto the next sentence.

 

2. Is one or two hours a week good enough or would it give the student false confidence? With the result that the student is reading a text at home several times but reading it badly, thereby reinforcing pronunciation errors that the online teacher doesn't have enough time to correct each week.

 

Several years ago I had weeks of one-to-one face-to-face pronunciation classes in China. Then I tried one or two classes per week, online, with the same teacher. The online ones didn't feel anything like as successful as the face to face ones.

 

I have only ever had one Chinese teacher and always online. So, I do not know what it is like onsite for Chinese. However, since I use an in-ear head-phone in one ear, I could hear the teacher better and more clearly than I would probably have onsite.

 

I spent a lot of time in the beginning on getting the pronunciation right by myself (mainly Youtube). When I had my first lesson, we went through the pinyin table and 95% or so of my sounds and tones seemed to be "good". I had about 20 lessons (once a week) and took a break of several months. During that time I went to Taiwan for 4 weeks and my teacher was terrified that it would mess up my pronunciation. Several months after Taiwan we had another lesson together and with a clear sign of relief she said " I am glad your pronunciation is still good". Now, I do not know what this means, because I am clearly far from native sounding: Nevertheless, it appears as if studying by yourself does not necessarily harm your pronunciation if you continue to pay constant attention to it. In this very old post on this forum one student says: "Ever since my Chinese 1 class I haven't used tones to speak, and one year later I am regretting that". (https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/6539-how-could-i-get-better-at-tones/). This was 15 years ago. I believe nowadays students are much more conscious of the importance of tones and pronunciation when learning Chinese.

 

Having said that I am not in the camp of people, who believe that if you do not learn the perfect serve in the first 3 months, you will never become Roger Federer...

 

 

[jiaojiao87]

Practice what you want to improve. 

 

If you want to be able to speak to and understand others speaking Chinese, don't put off learning this.  You only have so many hours in the day, so focus your Chinese study on the specific aspects you value.

 

Up until this month, iTalki has been my main source of instruction.  Like everything in life, some teachers are good, and some aren't.  You should have some form of "homework" or practice outside of class hours.

 

Learning chinese is mostly a function of how much "quality" time you put into it.  Perfect practice makes perfect, and all that.  Don't expect to improve your pronunciation or listening without practice and feedback.  And don't expect to be able to go from "unable to converse" to "conversing with educated natives on advanced topics" without putting in a lot of time.