Is Mark Zuckerberg still studying Chinese?

[abcdefg]

Everyone has doubtless seen videos of his presentation at Tsinghua in 2014. He got lots of praise for tackling the project of learning Mandarin. Friends still sometimes send me links to his fledgling effort. Happened again yesterday, in fact.

 

Started me wondering whether he has continued his studies and improved over the intervening 7 years. Anyone know?

 

https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/23/zuckerberg-speaking-chinese-shows-up-at-beijing-forum/

[NanJingDongLu]

The best I could find on google was a speech he did in 2015 in Mandarin. Nothing since then.

 

Big props to him. It takes a lot of courage to attempt what he did here with his level of fluency. Unfortunately his pronunciation let him down more than his vocabulary or grammar IMO.

 

https://qz.com/532834/mark-zuckerbergs-20-minute-speech-in-clumsy-mandarin-is-his-latest-attempt-to-woo-china/

[abcdefg]

That's the latest I could find too. Not very impressive pronunciation.

 

Link to a teaching analysis (by a good native speaking teacher of Chinese)

 

I wasn't sure whether something more recent might be available on Facebook since I'm not skilled in searching there. 

[TheBigZaboon]

Hope I'm not seen to be hijacking the conversation, but the ex-wrestler, now actor, John Cena has been studying Chinese Mandarin for a few years, too. He has more courage than I have in that he's been doing promotion interviews for his movies in Chinese. He recently stepped in it when he mentioned Taiwan in an interview. He was immediately forced into an abject and humiliating apology. But considering how much his budding acting career depends on the Chinese market, I don't think he had much choice. 

 

I haven't been able to find any recordings of the interviews to judge his progress. I'd appreciate it if anyone can point me to any website that offers a peek and a listen.

 

Thanks in advance... 

 

TBZ

[Lu]

Cena had a choice, and he chose to bow to the CCP in order to further his career. He was not in any personal danger (unlike, for example, people actually in China or Hong Kong). He has the right to make that choice, but he fully deserves to be criticised for it, if you ask me.

[TheBigZaboon]

@Lu When all is said and done, I fully agree with you. I have absolutely NO personal sympathy for Mr. Cena, at all. Perhaps my choice of words is at fault.

 

But he is doing promo for a movie that he and literally thousands of others have invested a lot of time and money in. In an "Oh, shit..." moment like that he had to be under a tremendous amount of pressure from colleagues, friends, and even family. I'm sure he felt it was far, far too late for principles at that point. The guy's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. I don't know him, I am not a movie fan boy, and I have absolutely no interest in the supposed problems of Hollywood dealing with obvious and blatant Chinese censorship, whether from the CCP, or from rabid nationalist fans. You dance with the Devil, you pay what He charges for the music.

 

But that's easier for me to say, because the Devil probably doesn't consider me a worthy catch, and thus not worth much in the way of effort. If I reveal my true feelings for the powers that be in China, I have to deal not with the CCP, but with the feelings of the "little" Chinese in my  admittedly limited orbit here where I live: the boys and girls who work in the convenience stores and restaurants in my neighborhood who struggle to understand my atrocious Chinese; my teachers who taught me my atrocious Chinese; the booksellers who give me extra special treatment to help me get books and DVDs from China because they're impressed that I'm the only white guy they ever met who could actually read or understand them, in spite of my atrocious Chinese...  Whether you and I like it or not, these people identify the CCP with everything they have now that their grandparents did not have. They probably feel that the CCP is the key to guaranteeing that their children will continue to enjoy this prosperity in the future. I don't like it, but for now, the only help I can hope for for Hong Kong citizens, oppressed minorities, or Taiwanese under threat, is if the CCP screws up so bad that it loses its own internal mantle of respectability. I don't like that fact, but I think it's the reality we all face. 

 

Sorry for the rant, and for hijacking the thread. I'm not a fan of Zuckerburg or Cena, but both displayed more courage than I have by daring to display Chinese learned outside of China for anyone to critique. I will continue to look for Cena's interview, even though I don't have any interest in seeing his movie(s). I want to compare his Chinese with mine, and secretly gloat, if there's reason enough to. Feel free to delete this and my previous post if you want. I have no grounds to complain. I've probably overstepped the boundaries of good manners in my reply, but that's the story of my life.

 

 Gomen nasai...

 

TBZ

 

[Tomsima]

I feel like the response really should have been tailored by a PR expert before filming, as the video itself comes off as very childlike in terms of the Chinese. Better would have been a more restrained and professional message of reconciliation rather than a 我真的很抱歉，很很很很抱歉 ......

[abcdefg]

4 hours ago, TheBigZaboon said:

I want to compare his Chinese with mine, and secretly gloat, if there's reason enough to.

 

I didn't find Cena's original promo talk, but I did find his profuse apology, expressed in Chinese. You are probably safe in gloating. His spoken Chinese was not very impressive, in my opinion. But I have no idea how long he has been at it. Could be amazing, depending on the time frame. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z88zeQ25pjQ 

 

Edited to Add -- Here's another from Baidu/Youku: much longer -- perhaps the original promotional talk 

 

https://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDE3MjQxNDIyOA==.html 

 

I understand his situation. In this second clip he explains it clearly. Got to give him points for using his Chinese like this, off the cuff. It's not easy as a beginner or advanced beginner. 

[mungouk]

50 minutes ago, abcdefg said:

His spoken Chinese was not very impressive, in my opinion. But I have no idea how long he has been at it.

 

About 9-10 years apparently.

 

Here's a youtube video looking at both Cena and Zuckerberg and analysing their mistakes.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbeTLkC7pSo

[abcdefg]

Cena is more understandable. Zukerberg sounds like a smart guy who has done lots of self study but the wife forbids him to practice at home. 

 

"Not on my dime, Mark. Don't you dare. You know we agreed early on that it would be only English at home. Think of the kids. Don't you want them to blend?" 

[imron]

3 hours ago, abcdefg said:

You know we agreed early on that it would be only English at home

Doubly so because his wife doesn't speak Mandarin.

[NanJingDongLu]

43 minutes ago, imron said:

Doubly so because his wife doesn't speak Mandarin.

It's weird, wikipedia says: "She is fluent in Mandarin, Cantonese, and English. She is the first college graduate in her family.[6]"

 

But when you click the link [6] it takes you to a CNN article which says the following: "On The Today Show, she recounted how she grew up speaking Cantonese and served as a translator for her grandparents, who didn't speak English."

 

So she's born in the US.. Her parents and grandparents speak Cantonese... but Wikipedia says she's fluent in Mandarin? Not impossible, but seems unlikely.

 

Actually. I kept digging. Wikipedia is wrong. Her Mandarin is about as good as Mark's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3F8jBWxtls

 

This is from early 2016 and his Chinese does actually seem much better, but I would presume it's because he rehearsed this?

[TheBigZaboon]

Just woke up on my side of the planet. Sorry for hijacking the thread. I haven't had time to listen to all the Cena recordings everyone has dug up for me, but I promise to get to it today.

 

On the question of Zuckerburg's wife and her Chinese (as well as her family's Chinese), my experience with her situation was as follows.

 

My first Chinese teacher was a neighbor, a Cantonese-speaking Vietnamese citizen (ex-citizen) of Chinese descent who immigrated with his family to Massachusetts in the US. Although the family spoke Cantonese as their heritage language, my teacher used Mandarin in business, so he was certainly qualified to guide me at that stage of my studies in Mandarin. We used the DeFrancis Beginning Chinese text and the set of accompanying tapes. He often joked that my pronunciation would be better than his if I followed the tapes faithfully.

 

I may be mistaken, but I think Zuckerburg's wife's family was part of the same group of Vietnamese immigrant families, in the same linguistic situation, in Massachusetts. If she was born there, I would expect they used a combination of Cantonese, Vietnamese, and English at home, and not Mandarin. Also, I would expect her to find it easier to study Mandarin as a second language in college in Massachusetts than either Vietnamese or Cantonese. Furthermore, I believe that she is a medical doctor, so honing her Mandarin skills probably took second place to STEM subjects in her curriculum.

 

Just sayin'...

 

TBZ

[NanJingDongLu]

12 hours ago, NanJingDongLu said:

Her Mandarin is about as good as Mark's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3F8jBWxtls

That's an interesting insight on Vietnamese immigrants of Chinese descent, but when it comes to Priscilla Chan there is no mistaking her Mandarin ability in the video above. She is not a Mandarin speaker.

[TheBigZaboon]

I agree, and I think that was the point of my post. I was trying to point out that Mandarin was not in her background. I've never met her, nor have I met any of her family. But based on the linguistic profile of my friend and his family, who are in the same tranche of Vietnamese Chinese immigrants to my home state, I would not expect her (and her generation, i.e., brothers and sisters) to have any more Mandarin than her husband. I would, however, expect her parents and grandparents to have the same Cantonese-flavored Mandarin that my friend spoke, similar to that of any Cantonese speaker in the Chinese diaspora.

 

And many thanks to you and everyone else for the tons of reference materials for me to look at over the weekend. People have been very diligent, and I have to do my homework.

[Lu]

20 hours ago, abcdefg said:

but the wife forbids him to practice at home.

Even if she were a native speaker (or just a competent speaker) of Mandarin (which she is not), she is not his Chinese teacher and has no obligation to be his language partner. It leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth to relate a man's Chinese skills, or lack of them, to what his wife 'allows' him to do. It puts some sort of blame on her, when actually his language skills are his responsibility to study and practice for, not hers.

[TheBigZaboon]

@Lu I'm not going to get into a discussion of the issues you mention (as unfair as that may seem->hit and run), but bilingual or multilingual marriages have stresses and strains all their own. When two people are very high-level functioners in the languages shared by the partners the complaints and arguments can be endless: "I helped you, why won't you help me?" "Why are you laughing at what I said? You say it all the time."  "Don't tell me how to speak my own language."

 

This can be especially intense when speaking the other partner's language well can mean significant differences in salary or promotion. And it can be a real bone of contention when it comes to education or choices of first and second languages for the children. If you're in it together to sink or swim, you can't avoid language assistance and cooperation.

 

I've had my say, and now I'm going to slink away. No, I take that back. I'm going to run as if my life depends on it.

 

TBZ

[NanJingDongLu]

20 hours ago, abcdefg said:

Zukerberg sounds like a smart guy who has done lots of self study but the wife forbids him to practice at home

 

31 minutes ago, Lu said:

It leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth to relate a man's Chinese skills, or lack of them, to what his wife 'allows' him to do. It puts some sort of blame on her, when actually his language skills are his responsibility to study and practice for, not hers.

There's a difference between being someone's teacher/language partner, and what @abcdefg said (which was clearly just a joke) to ban the use of the language in the house. Imagine we're talking about learning the Piano. It wouldn't be your wife's job to teach you, but if she forbid you from practicing, your lack of improvement would be in some way her fault.

 

I actually feel pretty strongly the other way. I have friends/acquaintances who are married to people from another country and/or who grew up in households speaking a different language, but they don't feel any urge to even attempt to learn that language. I'm not saying everyone has to be a native level speaker, but if you married an Indian girl whose parents don't speak English (and you go to their house for dinner once per month) maybe at least learn 100 words in their language and some common phrases? (yes please. Pass the salt. I'm full. That was lovely, thank you. See you next time.) Or another case: How have you been married to a Russian man for 7 years, but can't count to 10 in Russian?

[Lu]

@NanJingDongLu, I agree with that actually. If you're married to someone of another language, you should learn that language to at least a basic level, so you can exchange pleasantries with your in-laws and understand your bilingual children.

 

@TheBigZaboon, you are right too, a bilingual marriage has that whole issue to deal with, every different relationship in every different language combination in every different country running into its own specific issues. It's not simple and only the couple themselves can really figure this out (with a lot of communication, which needs to be done in a language, just to make things more complicated).

 

However! A spouse is still not a language teacher. As I see it, a spouse should be expected to 1) enable the learner and 2) cheer the learner on. So, allow the learner time and space to practice the piano without disturbing them every five minutes, going to their beginners' concert evening, things like that. That's the minimum, and a spouse who is not willing to do this is not being a good spouse. (Unless there are special circumstances of course.) Everything beyond that is nice but not required. Someone learning Chinese married to a native speaker of Chinese can ask their Chinese-speaking spouse to practice with them, but if the spouse doesn't have time, or patience, or the wrong accent, or just plain doesn't want to, the learner should accept that and find someone else to practice with. And then the spouse should occasionally remark that the learner's Chinese is improving, that's part of 'cheering them on'.

 

I should add that I've rarely dated anyone whose primary language I didn't already speak (and never dated anyone of another language long enough that I could expect them to start learning mine). It's all theoretical principles I came up with over time since this thread.

[mungouk]

16 minutes ago, Lu said:

However! A spouse is still not a language teacher.

 

100%. I had a wonderful German girlfriend for several years who also spoke perfect English — which is my mother tongue. Even so, I put a lot of effort into learning German from scratch, so that I could communicate better with her family and cope better with being in Germany, which we visited regularly.

 

We kept telling each other that we would have days where we spoke only German, so that my level could improve.

 

How many days did we do this?  Exactly one, on a very long car journey, and it was quite awkward.

 

When you're in a relationship your conversations need to be about things that are relevant and meaningful to that relationship.  It's not anything like asking a language partner about how the weather is in their town, or what are their hobbies. Any ambiguity or misunderstanding could cause real problems, just as when you're both conversing in the same mother tongue.

 

On the other hand, I did get a huge amount of useful practice time and positive feedback from her family, when talking to them in informal situations like a social event or barbecue. For me, this positive feedback was way more helpful and very motivating.

 

No doubt everyone's personal experience is different, but IMHO this idea of "if only I could find a partner who's a native speaker,  then I'd be able to learn so much faster" is a fallacy.