how can they not hear the tone change?

[suMMit]

I had an interesting conversation with 2 native speakers and another laowai tonight. Somehow the topic of tone changes came up and all three of them insisted there is no such thing as a tone change with 不， 一 or two 3rd tones. I tried many ways and examples to convince them, they said i.e. 影响,五点 etc is simply two third tones and nothing different happens when they fall together its the same 五 as 五号。They were saying these words and I could hear the tone change plain as day, but they denied it. I know its completely automatic for natives, but how can they not even hear it?

[Demonic_Duck]

You'd find a similar thing if you asked the average English speaker about the difference in the "p" sound between "pin" and "spin".

 

I think you'll have an easier time convincing them about 不 and 一, because those differences can be phonemically significant. For example, 不对 vs 部队 or 一句 vs 依据 are minimal pairs that illustrate the difference. However, such minimal pairs don't exist for two third tones in a row, because pronouncing both as normal third tones would sound a bit weird but can't be used to disambiguate between different words or phrases.

[NinKenDo]

Yes, basically what Demonic_Duck said: Native speakers generally can't hear things that aren't phonemically significant, even if it's called to their attention. I'm a little surprised by 一 and 不 though, because 1) these are phonemically significant and 2) for 不 this pronunciation is specially recorded in dictionaries. Of course native speakers don't spend their time looking up these things, but one would think that it being one of the few tone-change rules that gets an entry in the dictionary, it might have some special relevance to native speakers.

 

Honestly to some extent I can also understand this, sometimes when I'm trying to shadow or chorus I have to listen a few times in a long string of third tones in a row to understand which one's are actually changing so that I can pronounce things most naturally, and I don't generally have any problem processing tones in rapid connected speech.

[杰.克]

On 7/31/2021 at 9:47 PM, Demonic_Duck said:

You'd find a similar thing if you asked the average English speaker about the difference in the "p" sound between "pin" and "spin".

 

Feeling stupid, as I can't find a difference in the p when i say spin and pin (native english speaker by the way) haha. They both seem the same when i say them ?

 

But yeah, two 3 tones together is not pronounced as two singular 3 tones! Its a very certain change of how you say it

[Demonic_Duck]

12 minutes ago, 杰.克 said:

Feeling stupid, as I can't find a difference in the p when i say spin and pin (native english speaker by the way) haha. They both seem the same when i say them ?

 

Not stupid at all — entirely expected for most native English speakers who haven't studied linguistics. If you were a second-language speaker who had spent some time polishing your English pronunciation, you might have learned the rule explicitly, but native speakers know it intuitively and unconsciously. Just like native Chinese speakers do with sequences of third tones.

 

Wikipedia — Aspirated consonant

 

Quote

In dialects with aspiration, to feel or see the difference between aspirated and unaspirated sounds, one can put a hand or a lit candle in front of one's mouth, and say spin [spɪn] and then pin [pʰɪn]. One should either feel a puff of air or see a flicker of the candle flame with pin that one does not get with spin.