Prioritising / relative importance of skills

[杰.克]

On 10/22/2021 at 8:36 AM, Insectosaurus said:

This is just silly. Let me guess, your mother tongue is English? You do realize most people who know English know it because they consume stuff in that language every day, and have no plans on living in an English speaking environment? My listening and reading ability are at near native level, while my writing and speaking is subpar. That goes for me and most of my generation. Surely we could treat Chinese the same way without having to feel embarrassed.

 

Sorry I don't understand any of your post on its relation to the development of the thread? I have no idea why you are bringing up my native tongue?

 

If you are able to read back, I suggest that in terms of overall importance writing<reading<listening/speaking and that there is a distinction.  I often find Mandarin students worst ability is their speaking/ listening at a conversational pace, and that they should counter this by getting out there and talking at the upmost fore front of any other practice exercise.

 

First and foremost, if you meet a student - who isn't studying with a particular fondness for reading/reading hobby/caligraphy or something else. A bog standard mandarin student - you should be telling them to at the top of their priority chain 1:1 tutoring,  language partner, speaking to strangers, joining social circles where they can use chinese etc. Anyone suggesting otherwise is deceiving that student. All the other stuff is important, but not the most important.

 

It's not specific to you, you might find you prefer to read, theres no need to feel embarrassed or silly.  I have never learnt to write characters. Yet can speak and read fluently in Mandarin, and earn money, love and socialise in the language.  Writing is clearly less important than the other skills. If you want to say they are equal, then you are wrong. They aren't.

 

If still you can't appreciate it. Lets look to our god - Da Shan. How does he say he got so good at Mandarin? by travelling with a comedy tour for 2 years and spending the whole 24 months talking to them on tour busses and transport.  Getting good at chinese by.. flashcards? grammar textbooks? no, by communicating in Chinese. 

 

 

On 10/22/2021 at 3:19 PM, Pall said:

I would like to stress the main point of my agreement with you: in the study of a foreign language speaking should come first, if only because the word 'language' means speech, conversation. 

 

Hey buddy, am i having an impact lol? You are coming round to my "opinionated" beliefs on the upmost important of language primarily being about communicating. This post is spot on!

 

[Moshen]

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A bog standard mandarin student

 

This forum tends not to have "bog standard students."  That is why so many people are taking issue with your super-confident flat general assertions.  Because you are saying things that are not true across the board, true only for some people studying Chinese.

 

The point brought up by Insectosaurus was that countless people around the world use their second language of English daily, reading and even perhaps writing it at a very high level yet not speaking it well.  That works for them.  So who are you to tell them that they are wrong?

 

Different people have different language learning goals and different lifestyles.  Period.

[杰.克]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:48 PM, Moshen said:

This forum tends not to have "bog standard students."   Because you are saying things that are not true across the board, true only for some people studying Chinese. Different people have different language learning goals and different lifestyles.  Period.

 

Good job i already qualified all this at the start of the thread then! Thanks for summarising opening statements though for people who cba reading back!

 

On 10/15/2021 at 6:16 PM, 杰.克 said:

I do think though, everyone is completely different. The most important thing, is to spend time trying out a variety of different learning methods, and chose what fits you best. That being said, anyone reading this, feel free to completely ignore what i feel strongly about, because you will be different!

 

 

On 10/22/2021 at 7:48 PM, Moshen said:

The point brought up by Insectosaurus was that countless people around the world use their second language of English daily, reading and even perhaps writing it at a very high level yet not speaking it well.  That works for them.  So who are you to tell them that they are wrong?

 

Thats fantastic they have learnt english through reading and writing. If they had been in an environment that afforded them the opportunity to take all that time spent on reading and writing, and spent it communicating using english, HYPOTHETICALLY they would be even better still.   Theres no need to get emotionally butt-hurt on their imagined behalf.  This isn't about downplaying peoples ability to learn english that don't have access to native environments - this is very commendable. It's about the primacy of communicating. It's an academic discussion. No saltiness needed ?

[Insectosaurus]

On 10/22/2021 at 8:25 PM, 杰.克 said:

Sorry I don't understand any of your post on its relation to the development of the thread? I have no idea why you are bringing up my native tongue?

 

I'm not surprised you don't understand.

 

On 10/22/2021 at 8:50 PM, 杰.克 said:

Good job i already qualified all this at the start of the thread then!

 

And then changed your mind in a heartbeat:

 

On 10/20/2021 at 1:58 PM, 杰.克 said:

Both are important, but speaking is multiples more important than reading, and you will lean on it much more in every aspect of your life than reading. And to me this is a simple fact.

 

On 10/22/2021 at 8:50 PM, 杰.克 said:

Thats fantastic they have learnt english through reading and writing.

 

Huh? They obviously didn't. They probably did it by listening and reading. The posts talk about what daily usage looks like, not learning strategies. I'm not sure how you can be so confident speaking is key, since the research generally tends to say it isn't. Neither is writing, which seems to be your strawman counterargument.

 

I feel I've said what I wanted, and invite you to you get the final reply where you can find new creative ways to tell us we're wrong. You've already managed salty and butt-hurt. Third time's the charm, you can do it. I believe in you.

[Moshen]

Quote

Thats fantastic they have learnt english through reading and writing. If they had been in an environment that afforded them the opportunity to take all that time spent on reading and writing, and spent it communicating using english, HYPOTHETICALLY they would be even better still. 

 

Given that people have a finite amount of time, you are claiming that if people spent less time reading English and more time speaking conversationally, they would be better at reading.  This makes no sense whatsoever.

 

You seem to be missing the point that many people learning a second language have little or no use for conversation in that language and much use for reading and writing.  Some other people (the kind of people you like, it seems) have little or no use for reading in that language and much use for conversation.  And OK, some (the "bog standard" ones?) want to be well rounded.

 

There's no need to make any of these people wrong, in my view.

[glu]

It saddens me to see that the conversation has taken an unpleasant turn. I feel that this confrontation does not help broaden anyone’s perspective, or bring us closer to appreciating our differences as learners.

 

I wonder if including “opinionated” in the title was a bad idea. I meant it light-heartedly, not aiming to generate controversy.

[杰.克]

On 10/22/2021 at 8:29 PM, Insectosaurus said:

I'm not surprised you don't understand.

 

Can you to try to focus on more of the interesting academic discussion? and less of the emotional responses. I'm starting to think your not so sure what the crux of my point has been throughout. Please have a read back from the start, and maybe you might reflect more positively on what I'm saying. I'd be fascinated to hear you summarise back to me, the main points of my argument. Im guessing it would be a lot different from the one I had in mind. The difficulty of nuance through a keyboard ey... (not your fault by the way, just the limits of the medium)

 

Failing that, Id be much more interested to read your counter point to any of the points I raised. Ie i disagree with you on this point and heres my counter argument...

[杰.克]

On 10/22/2021 at 8:43 PM, glu said:

I wonder if including “opinionated” in the title was a bad idea. I meant it light-heartedly, not aiming to generate controversy.

 

Yeah its a tough one. Its been interesting but it can be hard for people to manage. Theres a subreddit called unpopular opinion - which raises really curious, interesting points of conversation. Of course, naturally, some people are going to be rubbed up the wrong way by them, otherwise they would be popular.

[Moshen]

Quote

naturally, some people are going to be rubbed up the wrong way by them

 

The disagreement here is not a matter of being "rubbed the wrong way."  These are logical and factual points being argued.

 

And controversy - or conflict - is a good thing if it means people are challenging statements that they believe are unfair or incorrect.

 

 

[Guest realmayo]

On 10/22/2021 at 8:43 PM, glu said:

I wonder if including “opinionated” in the title was a bad idea.

You might consider asking one of the moderators to split out the two posts about your audio player and put them into a new topic.

[杰.克]

On 10/22/2021 at 8:57 PM, Moshen said:

These are logical and factual points being argued.

 

Ok assuming good faith going forward, wiping the slate clean of previous posts. Let's start again from my worldview, and feel free to counter in a pleasant, logical and factual manner.

 

In terms of proficiency at language - Without a doubt all facets are important, but you can quantify which skills are more important, and they are are in the following order ; Speaking and listening are more important than reading, and all three are more important than writing.

 

[alantin]

Someone threw the word "academic" in there.. I don't really see anything academic about this discussion. Only opinions. Like the title suggests.

 

If people want to make the discussion more academic, the first step would be to agree on what the different terms, for example "important", means, then agree on the research question, "how to quantify and measure the importance of the four skills, Reading, Writing, Listening, and Speaking, for the general Chinese language learner", then the research methods would need to be set and decided what the scales should be, quantitative or qualitative, etc. Only after the basic framework for measuring importance is agreed on, another research project would be needed to perform the actual measurements. There are a lot of Chinese learners around the world, so I imagine it would require quite extensive questionnaires and interviews to gather the data for comparison.

 

Only then it would be possible to "academically" declare any general order of importance.

 

This does sound like an interesting topic for a series of dissertations though.

[Pall]

On 10/22/2021 at 9:25 PM, 杰.克 said:

Hey buddy, am i having an impact lol? You are coming round to my "opinionated" beliefs on the upmost important of language primarily being about communicating. This post is spot on!

Sorry, I confused you with one who initiated the tread

[Moshen]

The problem is that "important" is a value judgment, not a matter of fact.  It's therefore an incomplete idea.  To answer the question, anyone needs to first ask, "important for what"?  And then we get back to the issue that people have different reasons for studying a language.

 

Important for doing business?

 

Important for traveling?

 

Important for passing some exam?

 

Important for scholarship?

 

When I worked in China, one of my colleagues was an American expert who was translating one of the classic Chinese novels into English.  His spoken Chinese was mediocre, but that didn't hold him back in his work.  And I was able to travel on my own even though I couldn't read more than a few characters because up to that point I'd concentrated on speaking.

 

 

[杰.克]

You can atomise to the nth degree pal, there are an infinite amount of examples you could post where reading and writing will be more important, but it doesn't talking away from the fact generally speaking - 

Speaking and listening are more important than reading, and all three are more important than writing.

 

Feel free to say that statement is vague, and should not be a rule for every scenario. But it is a correct statement, and you should acknowledge it first, before moving on.

[alantin]

On 10/23/2021 at 1:31 PM, 杰.克 said:

But it is a correct statement, and you should acknowledge it first

 

As @Moshensaid, it is an incomplete statement. I think it can be acknowledged that you think so but there is no way to agree or disagree with it without knowing "important for what?".
I also just wrote on the other thread why I believe based on my own experience learning three different languages, the correct order of importance for an average learner would be Reading first, Listening second, Writing third, Speaking last. This is my opinionated correct statement which I'd like everyone to acknowledge too. ?

[Pall]

On 10/23/2021 at 1:31 PM, 杰.克 said:

You can atomise to the nth degree pal, but it doesn't talking away from the fact generally speaking - 

Speaking and listening are more important than reading, and all three are more important than writing.

I'm moving in this direction: some initial listening to master basic sounds -SPEAKING! So at this stage we are of the same opinion (you can't start to speak without preceeding some listening, can you?). And now I'm at this point. As soon as I master to speak within some range of the most used words, I'll go further.

 

Next, I can see some divergence: after mastering speaking I'm going to read much. But simultaneousely I may start listening, too. 

[杰.克]

On 10/23/2021 at 12:11 PM, alantin said:

As @Moshensaid, it is an incomplete statement. There is no way to agree or disagree with it without knowing what for.
I also just wrote on the other thread why I believe based on my own experience learning three different languages, the correct order of importance for an average learner would be Reading first, Listening second, Writing third, Speaking last. This is my opinionated correct statement which I'd like everyone to acknowledge too. ?

 

The thing is - you'd be wrong...

 

Writing is not more important than speaking or listening, or reading!... 

 

(But in what scenario I hear you moan!)

 

If you need me to qualify the end of the statement (It seems unneeded as I assumed i could just say the word language or communication and you would understand) to communicate as a human being with other human beings ie - language. 

 

Fuck me script didn't even exist for a long time but humans were still interacting. How you can posit that there isn't a spectrum of importance baffles me... If i said right now, with a gun to your head, you have to go without one skill for the rest of your life, i know for a fact 99.9% of people would go without writing.

[Guest realmayo]

杰.克, it seems like you're talking about "important" as meaning "how good one is at a language when one's finished studying it and/or is actively using it". But some people are thinking in terms of how to prioritise things most efficiently while studing it, some people are grading by the different amount of conscious effort involved, and others are thinking in terms of how they themselves might actively use the language (i.e. mainly read, rarely speak).

 

I think this guy put it best, at the top of this this thread:

 

On 10/15/2021 at 6:16 PM, 杰.克 said:

I do think though, everyone is completely different. The most important thing, is to spend time trying out a variety of different learning methods, and chose what fits you best. That being said, anyone reading this, feel free to completely ignore what i feel strongly about, because you will be different!

 

[杰.克]

On 10/23/2021 at 12:23 PM, realmayo said:

I think this guy put it best, at the top of this this thread:

 

Yeah I'm happy with this. I think we can have an overarching statement that there is an order of importance , but that on an individual level this wildy swings, and the individual can adjust the order to fit his or her unique lifestyle.

 

I've been at this position all along ?