What is your definition of success with Chinese?

[dakonglong]

Over the past six years, I have adapted my Chinese learning goals many times. They have varied from:

• Identify a few simple characters

• Say a few words in Chinese

• Pass the HSK3

• Pass the HSK4

• Hold basic conversations in Chinese

• Generally understand 小猪佩奇 (Peppa Pig)

• Generally understand 喜羊羊 (Pleasant Goat)

• Learn the HSK5 vocabulary

• Learn 5,000 relevant words

• Read a novel with a dictionary

• Generally understand a simple Chinese drama

• Communicate clearly on relevant topics

• Read more novels with less dictionary help each time

• Read a novel without a dictionary

• Completely understand a Chinese drama without subtitles

• Write a collection of short stories in Chinese

• Communicate clearly on a wide variety of topics

The last four are my current goals, and with continued hard work, I hope to be able to achieve them within the next couple of years. However, for the first time since I started learning Chinese, my goals represent relative competence in the language. This led me to wonder, what happens when people actually achieve that level? Do you reach a maintenance level that you’re happy with? Do the practical returns on the time invested diminish substantially? Do you continue to acquire vocabulary on increasingly esoteric topics? Can you handle all aspects of life in Chinese at this level, or are there still skills to master?

I know I am still way off from this level currently, but six years of learning Chinese flew by and I’m sure the next several will too, so I’m curious. To those that have achieved a functional level of Chinese, what’s it like and what’s next after that?

[杰.克]

Fairly early on, I stopped using firm goals such as Pass HSK 3 or learn 2000 words as my targets. I felt like they were too rigid, and although good as signposts, didn't really correlate that strongly to actual progression. Instead I started to use experiences, such as  "being able to use chinese to order a coffee at coffee shop" , "first time able to only use Chinese with a language partner' or "first time giving presentation at work in mandarin" etc etc.

 

In terms of how I study now, I've been at a fairly high level for a while now, having been working in a Chinese language office for last 2 years in Mandarin (having studied for 8). I can speak with confidence on all general topics, and so now to progress I just zone in on more detailed areas. For example last year I have been watching and learning in depth about the "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" and all the vocab for that. 

 

How does it feel to be at a functional level? Honestly it feels great. It's the most amazing rock of mental health and satisfaction in life. To me (who only studied as a secondary thing, never my actual major) it is a shining becon of inner- happiness that noone can ever take away from me. Furthermore I have the most amazing interactions with people. The warmth and love I get and give to Chinese people here in the UK when I chat with them in their mother tongue is so rewarding. Like, if i start speaking Mandarin, you instantly see peoples barriers go down. Its genuinely the best thing Ive ever done with my life.

[abcdefg]

On 11/7/2021 at 1:40 AM, 杰.克 said:

For example last year I have been watching and learning in depth about the "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" and all the vocab for that. 

 

Have you discovered these excellent performances? I'll bet you have. https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/55971-three-kingdoms-tv-movies/?tab=comments#comment-431780 

 

What do you think about starting a ROTK thread? Lots of excellent study resources are out there, podcasts as well as video. Might find there's a good deal of interest. 

[abcdefg]

As to the original question, "What is your definition of success with Chinese?"

 

My simple answer was to be able to do the things I wanted to do while living in China, with all communication happening in Chinese. I used a heavily goal-directed approach similar to what @杰克 has described above and in several of his other posts. And I experienced the same satisfaction he mentions. My personal goals were never academic. Feels very good to become relatively functional when living in China. Feels very good to get past the stage where native speakers even think about complimenting your language skills and focus instead on what you are saying. 

[coffeepresto]

It makes sense that your goals would evolve over the years as your language ability and as your personal priorities shift. My goal right now is to read novels without constantly consulting a dictionary. I love reading; that is my primary motivation in learning a foreign language--reading and being exposed to ideas to ideas in the target language, and really feeling the target language, if that makes sense; through reading you can see what the language can do in an artistic sense.

 

I also want to be able to speak about complex topics with ease. Recently, I took the ACFL OPI and came out to Advanced Mid, which is roughly B2. In my opinion, B2 represents a considerable degree of fluency, certainly enough to do most things. It's not enough to talk about high-level ideas with ease; during the test, I could feel my language breaking down when I was asked high-level questions... I could answer, just not comfortable. So now I would like to achieve something like Advanced High, which I guess would be C1.

 

My goals before this level, though? I think just not having to translate in my head had been my goal for a long time.

[Woodford]

On 11/7/2021 at 9:52 AM, coffeepresto said:

My goal right now is to read novels without constantly consulting a dictionary.

 

This has totally been my largest goal up to this point. It's really tricky to know when I've officially reached it, though! Could I read a book without using a dictionary and still follow along with it and appreciate the story? For many books, absolutely. So I guess I've achieved my goal, to a certain degree. But what's my tolerance level for unknown vocabulary? I guess it varies from person to person. But I'm still harvesting about 200-300 new words in the average 300-page book. In my case, I still feel like that's a significant number, so I'm continuing to work on this goal.

 

I think it was Imron who mentioned that his skills were good after 8 books, and I found that to be really accurate. Looking at my difficulty curve (which I've plotted on a graph), I haven't had any major improvement since my 8th book. Since then, it's just been a slow process of continued refinement and fine-tuning.

 

I also have a similar listening goal--I want to understand spoken Chinese without being completely lost or relying on subtitles (it's coming, very very slowly). I also want to have basic conversation skills (haven't practiced much at all yet). But in those rare occasions when I'm talking with a Chinese friend, I'm really surprised by two things: I can generally understand him (especially when he's talking to me slowly and deliberately, as native speakers often do with a 老外), and my brain has a large store of passive knowledge that's ready to be used actively in conversation. Of course, I should be willing to get out there, talk with people, and embarrass myself (I'll do that next year, I hope!). But I'm just surprised at how much passive listening and reading prepare me.

[889]

If you're doing it right, your goal is constantly moving ahead as you advance.

[道艺]

Mine is pretty much the same as abcdefg. Living here and maintaining a personal and professional life that requires the use of Chinese at any moment. Feels good to be self-reliant.

[amytheorangutan]

Ultimately I would love to get my Chinese to similar level to my English but I think it will take a long time but I’m not in a hurry so even if it takes 10-15 years so be it. 

[Flickserve]

On 11/7/2021 at 3:40 PM, 杰.克 said:

The warmth and love I get and give to Chinese people here in the UK when I chat with them in their mother tongue is so rewarding. Like, if i start speaking Mandarin, you instantly see peoples barriers go down.

Side tracking somewhat - what happens when you speak Mandarin to one of the new Chinese immigrants from Hong Kong?

[Flickserve]

My aim would be able to do nearly all daily activities and problem solve using Mandarin.
 

Understanding dramas would be amazing for me. 

[杰.克]

On 11/12/2021 at 7:29 AM, Flickserve said:

Side tracking somewhat - what happens when you speak Mandarin to one of the new Chinese immigrants from Hong Kong?

 

Yes interesting point you raise, and it is something I've thought about a lot. A lot of the new people at the Chinese community church are from Hong Kong. So how do I deal with it? Well first of, I think I'm quite good at being able to tell the difference from the outset whether they are from Hong Kong or not (so often my intro question might establish this). Secondly, a lot of them speak decent, if not fantastic mandarin (depending on age) so if i start using mandarin, there isn't much of an an issue. Thirdly, ive learnt through my experiences, people really are touched by the fact I can speak Mandarin, regardless of where they are from. So its worth the risk.

 

It's been a process though - and the more warmth ive generated over time, the less i worry about it. I personally think its more a Western thing we worry about, the issue of racism is so at the forefront of every interaction in the media, that its turned what should be a joyous thing (sharing someone's language) into a nerve wracking thing. The people I am most sensitive to is 2nd/3rd generation British Born Chinese, a) because they may not speak any Mandarin at all (in fact i noticed a lot of them kinda dislike all things China tbh) b) i think they are most attuned to be offended rather than complimented by it.

 

Essentially, I am sensitive to people being offended by me speaking Mandarin to them and do consider this. But that fear doesn't stop me, because in 99% of scenarios I generate a huge amount of love, human warmth and connection, which I truly value (and i hope they do aswell). 

[Flickserve]

On 11/12/2021 at 7:27 PM, 杰.克 said:

Secondly, a lot of them speak decent, if not fantastic mandarin (depending on age) so if i start using mandarin, there isn't much of an an issue.

A lot of these are anti China so your reply surprises me somewhat. However, a non Chinese speaking mandarin to them may be more acceptable than another ethnic Chinese speaking mandarin to them.  
 

On 11/12/2021 at 7:27 PM, 杰.克 said:

The people I am most sensitive to is 2nd/3rd generation British Born Chinese, a) because they may not speak any Mandarin at all (in fact i noticed a lot of them kinda dislike all things China tbh) b) i think they are most attuned to be offended rather than complimented by it.

 

This I find interesting as I am part of this group though I don’t live in U.K. I didn’t speak any mandarin nor Chinese when there. It was a quite while ago but I also avoided the few people from China. (Of course there are many more now) I found them very different and difficult to connect with. I had better interaction with a few Taiwanese.
 

Definitely one thing that’s makes BBCs very defensive is Chinese people looking down on oneself for not speaking Chinese and then secondly that the Chinese person would say “oh you should know and learn Chinese”. When a non-chinese person comes up speaking fluent mandarin, it will put a BBC on the back foot. Your expertise makes them lose face.

[杰.克]

On 11/12/2021 at 4:13 PM, Flickserve said:

Definitely one thing that’s makes BBCs very defensive is Chinese people looking down on oneself for not speaking Chinese and then secondly that the Chinese person would say “oh you should know and learn Chinese”. When a non-chinese person comes up speaking fluent mandarin, it will put a BBC on the back foot. Your expertise makes them lose face.

 

Yeah for sure, and I don't want them to loose face, so if I think you are a BBC, Im alot more unlikely start a convo of in Mandarin. 

 

I also think part of it is i utterly radiate love for all things China/ Chinese Culture/Language/History whatever . From my experience, and from what they have told me, I have had a few BBC's tell me that, as a result of bullying, and feeling like an outsider, they have often psychologically moved away from anything China related, and leant into being British. This is also a reason that if I think you are a BBC i probably may be very cautious about using Mandarin, or bringing China up. TBH this is why alot of my chinese friends are much older than me. I basically adore the generation that is 50 and above, particularly all my ayis. With this age group, i never have to hide my language ability or passion. Even if they hate Chinese politics (which i never bring up) they still love all the other aspects of their home country.

[Thaddeus Collins]

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Yeah for sure, and I don't want them to loose face, so if I think you are a BBC, Im alot more unlikely start a convo of in Mandarin. 

 

I also think part of it is i utterly radiate love for all things China/ Chinese Culture/Language/History whatever . From my experience, and from what they have told me, I have had a few BBC's tell me that, as a result of bullying, and feeling like an outsider, they have often psychologically moved away from anything China related, and leant into being British. This is also a reason that if I think you are a BBC i probably may be very cautious about using Mandarin, or bringing China up. TBH this is why alot of my chinese friends are much older than me. I basically adore the generation that is 50 and above, particularly all my ayis. With this age group, i never have to hide my language ability or passion. Even if they hate Chinese politics (which i never bring up) they still love all the other aspects of their home country.

I absolutely agree with you. Very deep thoughts that respond within me. Very often we talk about success and do not even realize that very often the success of a country is its social catastrophe in the past. At https://samplius.com/free-essay-examples/social-issues/ I read some very interesting research on the social difficulties and problems of China in the last century.

[Lu]

On 11/9/2021 at 9:54 PM, 889 said:

If you're doing it right, your goal is constantly moving ahead as you advance.

This. Mine went gradually from study goals to career goals: from 'read a full book in Chinese' to 'translate a book' to 'get put on a stage to talk about something I have expertise in'. (with lots of years and steps in between). If your reasons to learn Chinese have nothing to do with either career or family/social life, you'll still find new goals. Read a more difficult novel/watch a more fast-talking drama without a dictionary. Discuss the novel/drama with a group of excited native speakers. There's always the next step.

[Moshen]

Quote

If you're doing it right, your goal is constantly moving ahead as you advance.

 

It could be going sideways as well as ahead, though.

 

I picked up Chinese Through Poetry by Archie Barnes and am enjoying it immensely - I'm now able to read, contemplate and enjoy (relatively simple) actual Chinese poems from more than 1000 years ago.  That was never something on my to-do list!

[Guest realmayo]

On 5/8/2022 at 9:45 PM, Moshen said:

Chinese Through Poetry by Archie Barnes

 

It's a great book!