How do you approach words with multiple meanings (e.g. 就)?

[Jan Finster]

How do you learn words with multiple very different meanings? 

 

 

Here is 就:
就    就    jiù    

at once; right away; only; just (emphasis); as early as; already; as soon as

then; in that case

as many as

even if

to approach, to move towards

to undertake; to engage in

to suffer; subjected to

to accomplish

to take advantage of

to go with (of foods)

with regard to; concerning
 

Since most words are 2 character words, it makes it even more difficult. From the meanings above it is not obvious to me, why 就业    means "to get a job; employment"

 

[alantin]

I usually just rely on the context with the meaning, but lately I've been pondering a related problem. How to learn 多音字. The different pronunciations are also usually used for the different respective meanings of the character. I'm thinking about making some coordinated effort using Anki to study the different pronunciations for the characters I encounter most often with example words for each pronunciation, but I haven't really come up with how to approach it yet.

 

Study characters and show example words for each pronunciation, or study the example words and highlight the 多音字 and the correct pronunciation, or some kind of combination of the two.

[Insectosaurus]

I created two example cards with my own template (see below), to show how I learn all vocabulary nowadays, including in my Japanese studies. Images show front and back of the cards.

 

On 12/6/2021 at 9:16 AM, Jan Finster said:

From the meanings above it is not obvious to me, why 就业    means "to get a job; employment"

 

And this is why you should use a real dictionary. 就 = engage in (an activity of some kind) + 业 (a line of business). Engage in a line of business = to get a job.

[Jim]

I actually quite enjoy the insight into the different mental map of reality you get from words like this, as in fact most of those meanings are the same or close but just need different ways to express the idea in English.

[Insectosaurus]

On 12/6/2021 at 12:53 PM, Jim said:

I actually quite enjoy the insight into the different mental map of reality you get from words like this, as in fact most of those meanings are the same or close but just need different ways to express the idea in English.

 

Yes, and this goes for most languages. For this reason I've more and more leaned towards just learning one example for every word, even if they have different usages. The other one will come over time during immersion. I would say this is true even when the words are not related (it's easier to learn pike the weapon if you've already learned pike the fish, or vice versa. Same goes for yet. If you're new to English and has studied "He's not here yet", there is no point to add a card for "and yet he isn't" even if the mean different things.

 

Just look at the Japanese word 掛ける to see how silly it would be to study all definitions. Note that both 掛ける and 就 have several definitions in monolingual dictionaries as well.

[alantin]

On 12/6/2021 at 1:59 PM, Insectosaurus said:

Just look at the Japanese word 掛ける to see how silly it would be to study all definitions.

 

An interesting example. Just a few common usages of the top of my head:

 

コートを掛ける

迷惑を掛ける

鍵を掛ける

エンジンを掛ける

水をサウナのストーブの上に掛ける

 

I have to say I have never really studied this character or these words. I've just picked them up through daily usage and didn't even realize they use the same character until typing these short sentences out and seeing what characters the IME provided.

 

I agree with you on that you should just learn the first "definition" you encounter and then the rest are often easy to learn by extension. However with this particular one I don't really see what's common to all of these actions. Maybe causing someone trouble is like throwing a coat on a peg, but what about locking the door or starting an engine?

 

Maybe they just had words that sounded the same and decided to use the same character for each of them. I guess that's common to Japanese and the simplified characters in Chinese too.

[Insectosaurus]

On 12/6/2021 at 1:19 PM, alantin said:

I agree with you on that you should just learn the first "definition" you encounter and then the rest are often easy to learn by extension. However with this particular one I don't really see what's common to all of these actions. Maybe causing someone trouble is like throwing a coat on a peg, but what about locking the door or starting an engine?

 

See my example with "pike". I would argue they don't need to be connected (although in this case they are etymologically related, granted), they're still (for some reason) easier to learn after you've already got some link between the word and your memory. Getting the hang of 掛ける is really simple after studying some time (I think you would agree), while the dictionary seems to suggest otherwise.

 

On 12/6/2021 at 1:19 PM, alantin said:

However with this particular one I don't really see what's common to all of these actions. Maybe causing someone trouble is like throwing a coat on a peg, but what about locking the door or starting an engine?

 

My thinking has been that it's just one of those "catch all-words" that languages tend to have a few of. But I have no idea.

[mungouk]

If you have the Outlier Essentials dictionary installed in Pleco it offers an "evolution" of meaning for many words.

 

According to the entry for 就 it originally meant "a really high place"

and then evolved into achievement, success, accomplish, engage in (which works for employment I think, especially if you think of 业 as industry/job)

and then Exactly, Precisely, Just, and Near (in time).

 

For me, this way of understanding meanings as being a 'network' rather than being monolithic and fixed makes more sense in terms of understanding the general "sense" of it.

 

I use this dictionary constantly with vocab learning when coming across a character I've not seen before, since it also picks apart the semantic and phonetic components and how they evolved as well (sound components don't always make sense with modern Mandarin), and this really helps me to understand how the characters are working.

 

 

 

 

[Jan Finster]

On 12/6/2021 at 12:53 PM, Jim said:

as in fact most of those meanings are the same or close but just need different ways to express the idea in English.

 

How are the following meanings "the same or close" ???

 

as early as

in that case

even if

to undertake

to suffer

to accomplish

to go with (of foods)

with regard to; concerning

[phills]

I generally follow a rule in linguistics that says common words are irregular while rare words are regular.  Irregular means that they don't really follow rules, and you just have to memorize all the weird situations in which they occur.  

 

就 is a very common character, 27th most common in my wordlist, and so it's going to be used in a lot of ad-hoc situations.  There's never going to be a rule that captures all of its uses, and if you try, you're only going to be stretching logic.

 

I try to find an example word /phrase / sentence that captures the different common senses in which a character is used.  So

 

at once; right away; only; just (emphasis); as early as; already; as soon as = 我就, 他就, 就会, 就要

then; in that case = 就是, 那就, 就此

as many as = 就有

even if = 就算, 就不,

to approach, to move towards = 就近?

to undertake; to engage in = 就任, 就餐, 就座, 就业, 就医, 就学

to suffer; subjected to = 就擒?

to accomplish = 就职, 就诊, 就业?

to take advantage of = 就地

to go with (of foods) =  ?

with regard to; concerning = 就对, 就象

 

(Some of these might not 100% right, but I'll shift them around as I learn more uses of a word.  Some of these uses might be rare enough that it's not worth learning for now.)

 

Some of these categories are kind of overlapping, but that's the way of irregular words.  It probably evolved over a long history, with different regions and groups having different usages.  For now, I just collect examples and use them to see the different word templates they appear in.

[phills]

It's like in English, you add -ed to make a past tense.  Except this rule doesn't apply to many common verbs, aka those that a 5 year old would know.

 

I am -> I was

I eat -> I ate

 

5 year olds don't believe in rules.  They don't need no stinkin' rules, cause they have awesome memory and just memorize everything.

 

On the other hand, words 5 year olds think are boring, they follow rules.  Adults like rules.

 

I exist -> I existed

I discuss - > I discussed

 

You can argue history caused this (one is a Germanic verb, one is not), but I find the 5 year old rule works almost as well ?  Every language has to be relearned by 5 year olds, and over time, it evolves to match.  Almost all the irregularities are going to be packed in the early / common parts of a language -- or those irregularities will be lost over many generations. 

 

That's my first approximation anyways.

[Insectosaurus]

On 12/6/2021 at 3:00 PM, phills said:

Irregular means that they don't really follow rules, and you just have to memorize all the weird situations in which they occur.  

 

I think internalize would be a better term here. Because actively memorizing all those different definitions or usages would be a huge waste of time.

 

On 12/6/2021 at 3:20 PM, phills said:

That's my first approximation anyways.

 

I agree, although many European languages were standardized during the romantic nationalism, hence a lot of word conjugations were decided top down.

[Jim]

On 12/6/2021 at 1:56 PM, Jan Finster said:

How are the following meanings "the same or close" ???

Mostly through various functions of the approaching sense.

[Publius]

On 12/6/2021 at 8:19 PM, alantin said:

but what about locking the door or starting an engine?

Ha, locking a door with a padlock does involve hanging. And although it's a bit of a stretch, we say 挂档 when working with the gearshift.

 

 

On 12/6/2021 at 9:56 PM, Jan Finster said:

How are the following meanings "the same or close" ???

 

as early as

in that case

even if

to undertake

to suffer

to accomplish

to go with (of foods)

with regard to; concerning

Let's start with "ready, set, go" which in Chinese is “各就（各）位，预备，跑”. This 就 covers the whole range of approaching the starting line, putting your foot on it, and getting ready. Various senses of the verb 就 can be considered a web of such English verbs as "approach, reach, ready, achieve..." For example, 就餐 -> to go sit next to your food in order to undertake the great job of feeding yourself; 束手就擒/引颈就戮 -> with hands tied/neck stretched, ready to be captured/decapitated; 就义 -> to die in the sense of achieving martyrdom; 成就霸业 -> not only working towards but often already established world dominance; 饺子就酒、越喝越有 -> accompanied by jiaozi (with jiaozi close by hand, so it's easy to reach), the more alcohol you drink the happier you are; 屈尊俯就 -> to deign, to stoop to a lower level, cf. 迁就 to adapt, to accommodate (in essence, to bring oneself nearer to a less than optimal state).

 

And then the conjunction/adverbial senses are derived from the accomplished state, "once X is done, Y follows".

 

[abcdefg]

On 12/6/2021 at 2:16 AM, Jan Finster said:

Here is 就:
就    就    jiù  

 

This is such a great one. I spent a lot of time and effort with it since I believe that a mastery of how to use a half a dozen words like this give a much more "native" feel to your daily speech. Jiu 就 is at the top of my short list. 

 

I imitate, imitate, imitate. I use it like he uses it; use it like she uses it.

 

Agree with @phills,from above: >>"5 year olds don't believe in rules.  They don't need no stinkin' rules, cause they have awesome memory and just memorize everything."

 

My ear is tuned to it; I look for it; I notice it. I also go out of my way to use the new word a whole lot in ordinary speech with natives. I use it even when I'm not sure it actually fits. I pay attention to any odd looks it elicits, ask questions about how to do it better, use those "mini-mistakes" as opportunities to revise and refine my understanding of when and how to use it. Practice, stumble, practice some more. Make myself thoroughly irritating to all friends and acquaintances.

 

One friend would say (in Chinese), "Oh, you are saying that word all the time these last few days. What is up with that? Why do you use it so much? Oh, I get it. Must be your new 'word of the day.'" I would laugh. Play with the new word like a child plays with a new toy or an adolescent over-uses a recently-discovered tool. Be relentless. Persist until it is natural; until it comes out "right" automatically, without conscious thought.   

[Woodford]

Most of the words I study have 2 or 3 different possible definitions, and I'll often try to remember the one that feels most pertinent or descriptive. When I'm drilling through vocabulary flashcards, I count my guess as "correct" if I can remember at least one of those meanings. However, some words just really challenge me. Take, for instance, the word 扒. Pleco gives the following definitions: hold on to, cling to, dig up, rake, pull down, push aside, strip off, take off, peel, skin, tear, etc. It's so bewildering that I don't think flash card drilling will help me. I just have to keep encountering the word in context.

Then there are common words with common meanings, but then 1% of the time, one such word will have a completely different meaning than it normally has, and it's the 7th or 8th item down the list of definitions in Pleco (like the word 记. It usually has to do with remembering, recording, or note taking, but it can also be a "classifier for blows, kicks, and shots"). By that time, I've already been studying the word under its more common definitions, and if I made a new flash card with its more rare definition, I would just be confusing myself, so I don't. I just hope I'll encounter it enough times to remember it.

The examples I've seen above, 就业 and 就地, are really interesting ones. I actually studied those as two separate words, apart from 就 (I study more at the vocabulary level than at the character level). Very often, I learn what these compound words (and chengyu) mean without knowing why they mean that. But then as they accumulate, I have more and more of these moments when I think, "Oh, yes--now I know why that word means that!" And I can successfully guess what certain new words mean, even if I haven't seen them before. 

[malazann]

Sometimes I use hanzicraft to figure out what the most common meaning of a word is, and then I learn that word/meaning. I don't know how accurate the frequency lists are but I like the idea. 

[889]

Use a dictionary for reference of course when you're stymied by the particular use of a word.

 

But it's hopeless to use a dictionary as a study tool for distinguishing fine meanings of a character. The definitions are simply too cryptic.

 

You learn to distinguish fine meanings by actually listening to each character in speech. (Sounds obvious as can be, but it's so easy to half tune-out after a few minutes.) And similarly by reading closely, not skimming.

[anonymoose]

If you thought 就 was bad, wait till you learn 打.

[BearXiong]

On 12/11/2021 at 5:18 AM, anonymoose said:

If you thought 就 was bad, wait till you learn 打.

 

I think 打 is one of those words we can't translate well into English but actually essentially has one meaning: "two things come together, then move apart". I'll let you guys think about how it applies to 打拳，打针，打交道，打水，打的 etc ?