phills Posted December 8, 2021 at 10:44 AM Report Posted December 8, 2021 at 10:44 AM 雪山飞狐 is an often recommended starter story, if you're interested in reading 金庸, a giant of the genre. On the plus side, it's relatively short. But on the negative side, it's an intricate tale, with shifting time frames and unreliable narrators. It makes for an interesting read for natives, but makes it tougher for language learners. The cast of characters is large for the length of story. The story also uses a lot of chengyu and literary / archaic / kung-fu world expressions. Combined together, it can make for a tough slog at the start. Fortunately, once you figure it all out, the reading experience can become much smoother. One thing that really helped me was mapping the cast list. I cribbed one from various wiki's, though they didn't have one with both Chinese & English, so I made my own version. I thought I'd share the list for others thinking of reading 雪山飞狐, under spoiler tags (only mild spoilers though): The setup 雪山飞狐 uses a shifting time frames to tell its story. The beginning of the story is set in the present -- the first cast of characters are first involved in a 3-way fight, and then invited to a Mountain Villa. Where to solve a mystery, they recount stories of what happened in the past. There are 2 "pasts" that are explored -- the near past, with a story involving the parents of the current characters, and the far past, involving their ancestors, which explains how everything was set in motion. Cast Pre Mountain Villa Spoiler 1. From 辽东 (Liaodong), the 天龙门 (the Sky Dragon Gate) group At the beginning of the story, they're on a mission to avenge their ex-leader 田归农. Divided into 2 subgroups: the 北宗 (Northern Sect), and the 南宗 (Southern Sect). 曹云奇 (Cao Yunqi): the new leader (掌门人) of of the 天龙门 faction. Nicknamed ‘腾龙剑’ (Soaring Dragon Sword). Likes 田青文. 阮士中 (Ruan Shizhong): also of the Northern Sect; nicknamed ‘七星手’ (Seven Star Hand); considered the best fighter of the Northern Sect (门中第一高手). 周云阳 (Zhou Yunyang): Northern Sect; nicknamed ‘回龙剑’ (Returning Dragon Sword) 田青文(Tian Qingwen): Daughter of the ex-leader 田归农. Involved in love triangle with 曹云奇 and 陶子安 (see below) 殷吉(Yin Ji): leader of the Southern Sect; nicknamed '威震天南’ (Awe of the Southern Sky) 2. The 饮马川 山寨 (Yin Ma Chuan Fortified Village) group At the beginning of the story, being suspected by the 天龙门 for killing 田归农, so in conflict with them. 陶百岁 (Tao Baisui): nicknamed ‘镇关东’ (Pacifier of Guan-dong); father of 陶子安 陶子安 (Tao Zi-an): Son of 陶百岁. Promised in marriage to 田青文 by her father, 田归农. 马寨主 (Master of Ma Zhai) 3. The 北京平通镖局 (Beijing Travel Security) Group At the beginning of the story, seems to have a quarrel with the 陶 father-and-son, also may be in it for treasure. 熊元献 (Xiong Yuanxian) : the head (总镖头) 郑三娘(Zheng San-niang): nicknamed ‘双刀’ (Twin Blades) 静智大师 (Jingzhi, Master): of the 山东百会寺 (Shandong Baihui Temple) 刘元鹤 (Liu Yuanhe): allied with 镖局, but is a member of Beijing's Tier 1 Guard Unit (京中一等侍卫). He works for the Qing govt 清廷. Reputed as ‘大内十八高手’. 4. Mysterious Stranger 宝树和尚 (Baoshu, Monk): unclear to everyone who he is, but seems to know a lot... Mountain Villa Characters Spoiler It's described as 玉笔山庄 (Villa on Jade Brush Peak) 1. The host 于管家 (Yu, the Manager): Runs the villa Described as a long-necked fellow (长颈汉). Mysterious owner: unnamed at the beginning. Later identitified as 杜希孟 (Du Ximeng) 2. Other guests 苗若兰 (Miao Ruolan): female protagonist. daughter of 苗人凤 (see below), the Golden Faced Buddha. 琴儿 (Qin-er): servant of 苗人凤 周奶妈 (Zhou, the Nanny): servant of 苗人凤 韩婶子 (Han, the Aunt): servant of 苗人凤 双生僮儿 (twins): servants of 胡斐 (see below), the titular Fox Volant. Children, but don't under-estimate them! 平阿四: also called 癞痢头阿四. A mysterious old servant with a scar. The Past (most spoilery) Spoiler 1. The Old King 闯王 李自成 (King Chuang, named Li Zicheng): had 4 guards, named 胡 (Hu)、苗 (Miao)、范 (Fan)、 田 (Tian). 苗,范,田 blame 胡 for betraying the king. Each one of these guards are the ancestors / founders of one of the groups or heroes in the present. Not to be confused with 清朝, the Qing Dynasty, or 乾隆 (Qianlong), who is the emperor 皇帝 and not a king 王. 2. The 胡 Clan 姓胡的卫士 (the Hu guard): didn't seem to have a full name, but was nicknamed 飞天狐狸 (the Flying Fox). The best fighter of the 4 guards. 胡一刀 (Hu Yidao): descendent of the Hu guard. Nicknamed “辽东大侠” (Liaodong Hero) or “黑面神” (Black Face God). 胡斐 (Hu Fei): son of 胡一刀. Nicknamed "雪山飞狐" (Fox Volante of Snowy Mountain), title of the book, so you know he becomes important. Although he's young and doesn't really appear until 2/3rd of the way through the book. 胡夫人: wife of 胡一刀,mother of 胡斐. Later revealed as cousin of 杜希孟, the owner of the Villa. 3. The 苗 clan 姓苗的卫士 (the Miao guard): again not really named 苗人凤 (Miao Renfeng): descendent of the Miao guard. Nicknamed 金面佛 (Golden Face Buddha). Also called "打遍天下无敌手" (the Invincible One Who Defeats All). 苗若兰 (Miao Ruolan): daughter of 苗人凤, introduced earlier. 4. The 范 clan 范帮主 (Fan Gang-Boss): descendent of the Fan guard; head of 兴汉丐帮 (the beggar gang of Xinghan). 5. The 田 Clan The 田 Clan is the founder of 天龙门, the first group you meet in the story 田归农 (Tian Guinong): father of 田青文. Already dead at the beginning of the story, was immediately previous leader of the Northern Sect of 天龙门 (北宗自掌门人). 田青文(Tian Qingwen): daughter of 田归农. Nicknamed "锦毛貂" (the Silver Sable). Promised in marriage to 陶子安, also involved with 曹云奇. 田安豹 (Tian Anbao): father of 田归农. Doesn't feature much in the story, but his death in the past also set off conflict, just like his son's death in the present. Others Spoiler 1. The government The Qing government is also involved and wants to catch some of these 江湖 heroes. 赛尚鄂 (Sai Shang-e): Commander of the Beijing Guards (侍卫总管); also referred to as 赛总管. Boss of 刘元鹤. Nicknamed 满洲第一高手 (#1 of the Manchu warriors) 刘元鹤 (Liu Yuanhe): introduced as part of the Beijing Travel Security group, but turns out to have a further agenda, on a govt mission. 2. Other invited fighters It seems like the Villa owner was inviting famous fighters all over the world for his party / tournament. 玄冥子 道长 (Xuan Mingzi, Taoist Priest): part of 青藏派 (Qinghai-Tibet Sect) 灵清 居士 (Lingqing, Buddhist): from 昆仑山 (Kunlun mountain) 蒋老 拳师 (Jiang, Old Boxing Master): from 河南太极门 (Henan Tai-chi society) 商剑鸣 (Shang Jianming): nicknamed ‘八卦刀’ (Sword of Ba-Gua) 1 2 Quote
phills Posted December 8, 2021 at 01:15 PM Author Report Posted December 8, 2021 at 01:15 PM I also collected a bunch of vocab words for speaking in a literary / archaic / wuxia / jianghu manner. I don't think normal people speak like this, unless they're roleplaying. But you do see this commonly sprinkled in wuxia & historical tv shows or movies. This isn't meant to be complete, but just stuff I happen to note down. Feel free to augment! Spoiler 在下: I / under / myself (humble) 小弟: I, your little brother (humble) 尊驾: You / lit. your honored carriage / your highness / honored Sir (also sarcastic) 家严: (polite) my father 令尊: Your esteemed father (honorific) 眷属: family member / husband and wife 世交: shi4 jiao1 (long time) friend of the family 续弦: xu4 xian2 to remarry (of a widow) / second wife / qin and se 琴瑟[qin2 se4], two string instruments as a symbol of marital harmony 千金: (honorific) daughter 过门: (of a woman) to marry 外号: wai4 hao4 nickname 老 __: prefix used before the surname of a person or a numeral indicating the order of birth of the children in a family or to indicate affection or familiarity, e.g. 老衲 (monk referring to himself) 贵 __: (honorific) your, e.g. 贵宾, 贵派 劳驾: lao2 jia4 excuse me 适才: just now / a moment ago 倏忽: shu1 hu1 (literary) suddenly 兀自: (literary) still / yet 比方: bi3 fang5 analogy / instance / for instance 无异: nothing other than / to differ in no way from / the same as / to amount to 引见: yin3 jian4 to introduce (sb) / (esp.) to present to the emperor 久仰: jiu3 yang3 honorific: I've long looked forward to meeting you. / It's an honor to meet you at last. 相公: lord / master / young gentleman / male prostitute / catamite /(old form of address for one's husband) husband 掌门人: leader of a clan 郎中: doctor (Chinese medicine) / ancient official title / companions (respectful) 稳婆: wen3 po2 midwife (old term) 掌柜: zhang3 gui4 shopkeeper 叫化子: jiao4 hua1 zi5 beggar, variant of 叫花子[jiao4 hua1 zi5] 小厮: manservant / boy servant / guy (derog.) 鼠辈: shu3 bei4 a scoundrel / a bad chap, an insult 狗熊: gou3 xiong2 black bear / coward, an insult 首: a literal head, rather than figurative leader. Often a severed one, e.g. 首级 背心: the back of a person, rather than a vest 大侠: knight / swordsman / noble warrior / chivalrous hero 豪杰: hao2 jie2 hero / towering figure 群豪: group of heroes 奸细: jian1 xi5 a spy / a crafty person 动手: engage in violence 比武: 1 on 1 match to compare fighting ability 较劲: compare strengths 兵刃: bing1 ren4 (bladed) weapons 暗器: an4 qi4 concealed weapon 武林: the martial arts world 江湖: the world of heroes, gangsters, hermits 绿林: the greenwood, like a combo of 江湖 and 武林 2 Quote
imron Posted December 8, 2021 at 11:08 PM Report Posted December 8, 2021 at 11:08 PM On 12/8/2021 at 9:44 PM, phills said: 雪山飞狐 is an often recommended starter story It’s been me recommending it, and I think I’m going to stop doing so. It’s becoming apparent that this is not a good introduction to 武侠 novels. I was recommending it because it is short (compared to 金庸’s other work), had an interesting story and I didn’t find it tricky to read. In hindsight, I’d already read several 金庸 books before reading 雪山飞狐 so was familiar both with金庸’s style and 武侠 vocabulary, and that’s probably why I didn’t find it tricky to read. 1 Quote
Publius Posted December 9, 2021 at 01:36 AM Report Posted December 9, 2021 at 01:36 AM On 12/9/2021 at 7:08 AM, imron said: It’s been me recommending it, and I think I’m going to stop doing so. Yea, I find the narrative structure of 雪山飞狐 unique and interesting, but I also realize that could be a problem. And the number of characters/factions is a bit overwhelming.... The five books I consider must-reads all have their shortcomings, either too slow-paced at the start or too literary and confusing. And they are all big doorstops. So what could be a better option? 鸳鸯刀 is super short, and there's some hilarious gems, but the ending... The ending simply makes you want to hit somebody, and I don't really want to be that somebody, lol. What do you think, imron? Quote
phills Posted December 9, 2021 at 04:28 AM Author Report Posted December 9, 2021 at 04:28 AM @imron I don't think 雪山飞狐 is a bad pick. I would still suggest it as the first 金庸. 鸳鸯刀 is also a good candidate so far, but I'm only a third of the way in, and I haven't hit the end yet. I looked at the alternatives. It's length is a huge plus. Being able to say "I finished it" is a big boost to confidence, and seeing the finishing line keeps your motivation up. The next shortest 碧血剑 is 3 times as long, 400k+ chars, and it starts an impenetratable section about the geopolitics of Brunei vis-a-vis Imperial China. 雪山飞狐 starts with the much simpler travel expedition with group of hunters. I think a big cast list is a 金庸 occupational hazard. As is the meandering start (the few other 金庸 I sampled all have a bit of a meandering start). The plot of 雪山飞狐 isn't actually that complicated -- 金庸 adds the framing devices to keep it interesting because otherwise it's a straightforward plot of misunderstanding + family feud. The biggest hurdle was actually not having great wiki resources, and no easily google-able English translation. For comparison, I started a Condor Heroes comic series 4-5 months ago, and the first 2 issues were confusing as heck. I didn't get into the flow of the story until 3 or 4 issues in. What helped was having the wiki open with the cast list (w/ factions), and plot summaries on the side, until I got into the flow. (I ended up putting that on pause, but I'll get back to it at some point). Actually what would be the simplest starter would be just the Inner Story from 雪山飞狐, the confrontation between 金面佛 and 胡一刀. That's got 2 badass heroes with cool nicknames, and a cinematic feud plot line. It's also about when I got into the flow of 雪山飞狐. I think if you can stick it out until that point, it becomes enjoyable, assuming you're at or near the level (with some stretching) of language ability for the material. Quote
Publius Posted December 9, 2021 at 06:26 PM Report Posted December 9, 2021 at 06:26 PM On 12/8/2021 at 9:15 PM, phills said: 首: a literal head, rather than figurative leader. Often a severed one, e.g. 首级 暗器: an4 qi4 concealed weapon 绿林: the greenwood, like a combo of 江湖 and 武林 That 首 reminds me of a scene in the Japanese drama 日本人の知らない日本語. I don't think "concealed weapon" quite captures the nature of 暗器. 暗器 is a small weapon used for throwing (by hand) or shooting (from a hidden contraption). Ninja's shuriken or throwing star is a good example of 暗器. 暗青子 means the same thing. The use of 暗器 is generally frowned upon for its underhandedness. 绿林 is more like the Robin Hoods' world. 绿林好汉 are heroic outlaws (like those in the Water Margin). 1 Quote
phills Posted December 10, 2021 at 04:07 AM Author Report Posted December 10, 2021 at 04:07 AM On 12/10/2021 at 2:26 AM, Publius said: 绿林 is more like the Robin Hood's world. 绿林好汉 are heroic outlaws (like those in the Water Margin). It's interesting there are different connotations of outlaw for those of the forests (绿林) vs. of the rivers & lakes (江湖). That forest outlaws are more honorable leaning, while those of the rivers/lakes may be honorable but may also be straight-up gangsters (include all types). On 12/10/2021 at 2:26 AM, Publius said: That 首 reminds me of a scene in the Japanese drama 日本人の知らない日本語. The youtube is funny... so many hanzi or kanji components can look like severed heads if you're imaginative enough. I never thought of 首 as a drawing of a head (with frizzy hair) before. Quote
phills Posted December 10, 2021 at 04:18 AM Author Report Posted December 10, 2021 at 04:18 AM I just finished 鸳鸯刀. I think it is easier than 雪山飞狐, although maybe it's just easier because it's now my second 金庸 story. It's also funnier. It has a distinctively light tone -- it reminded me of Shrek-like fairy tale crossed with wuxia. My mind movie immediately went to animation, rather than human actors. Not as epic feeling though as 雪山飞狐. The ending was a bit confusing. Spoilers: Spoiler Is it just a play on words, but from your reaction, a "groaner" of joke? That 无敌 means both invincible and just a guy with no enemies, and so the "secret" is a benevolant person 仁者 makes no enemies? Quote
Publius Posted December 10, 2021 at 06:28 AM Report Posted December 10, 2021 at 06:28 AM No, the difference between 绿林 and 江湖 is that 绿林 is exclusively for outlaws, bandits. There may be honorable bandits, but they're outlaws nonetheless. Whereas in 江湖 there may be heroes and villains, but they usually have a legitimate business, even just as a front. The severed head is not just imagination. The kanji 県 'prefecture' and hanzi 县 'county' are simplified from 縣, the original form of 懸/悬, with the meaning 'to hang'. The upsidedown head is real! About the 鸳鸯刀 ending It may be a pun, or maybe the message is "You want to be invincible? Be a good person!" Either way, Jin Yong is pulling our legs. After all the buildup, this anticlimactic moment. 我裤子都脱了你就给我看这个?呵呵 P.S. I can see you're getting the hang of the classical language, that it is mostly monosyllabic, that the word meaning often differs from modern usage. ? 2 Quote
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