Uses of 没？

[Kong Junrui]

I know that you can use it for a negative verb like 没有, and as a negative past thingy, like 我没吃 (I didn't eat). Is there any other use for mei (没)?

Thanks.

[Quest]

mo4 -- 淹没，没落，出没，没收，没世

[gougou]

I was thinking about starting a thread about this myself, especially after stumbling into this. Do I understand it correctly that the last usage uses 没 with an adjective to say that some state has not changed (as in the example, 天还没亮, it is not light outside?)

And does it simply mean, it isn't, or does it imply "yet"?

[HashiriKata]

gougou:

I couldn't open your link, so I may be wrong but I think 没 simply negates the adjective (as well as the verb) : 没错. To include the sense "some state has not changed", you have to include 还 with it, as in your example: 天还没亮.

[gougou]

Strange that you couldn't open it... Anyhow, here is the explanations they give: (the page is about 没 and 不)

- 用在形容词前表示对性质的否定，要用“不”。

- 但形容词表示状态未出现某种变化时，要用“没（有）”。

I don't quite get the difference...

[Jose]

gougou, I think méi is the negative form of "change-of-state" le. So, verb + le is negated as mei(you) + verb. Note that Chinese adjectives can be regarded as a type of verb.

Compare:

他已经起床了 He has already got up.

他还没(有)起床(呢) He hasn't got up yet.

天气已经好了 The weather has already got better.

天气还没(有)好(呢) The weather hasn't got better yet.

[gougou]

Note that Chinese adjectives can be regarded as a type of verb.

That explains it. Thanks Jose!

[HashiriKata]

I think méi is the negative form of "change-of-state" le.

Although this is an explanation you often hear but it can confuse issues. As I mentioned above, any sense of "change-of-state" here is induced by 还, and not inherent in 没. Just look at your examples and you'll also see 还 there. Now, take away the 还 in your examples you'll see that 没 simply indicates the past negative. I hope my earlier explanation helps separating the 2 issues.

[gougou]

OK, so then let's sort things out, what do the following mean (assuming that it is possible to say it like this):

天气不好。

天气没好。

我没难过。

我不难过。

[Jose]

any sense of "change-of-state" here is induced by 还, and not inherent in 没

Are you sure about this? In the examples above, I used 已经 and 还 because they are commonly used in these 了 and 没有 expressions, but I think it would also be correct to leave them out and say:

他起床了 He has got up.

他没(有)起床 He hasn't got up.

天气好了 The weather has got better.

天气没(有)好 The weather hasn't got better.

I would say the change of state is inherent in 了 and 没. 已经 and 还 are usually added for emphasis, and they are more common (and therefore weaker) than "already" and "yet" in English.

Also, if you want to ask whether the weather has improved, you could ask the yes-no question in the form " 天气好了没有? ". Again, I don't think 已经 or 还 are necessary here, but I may be wrong, of course.

[gougou]

Alright, more opinions, more examples... Is there a difference between the following sentences?

天气没好。

天气没好呢。

天气还没好。

天气还没好呢。

I'm especially wondering which imply an expected change, and which don't.

[HashiriKata]

他没(有)起床(呢) He hasn't got up.

天气没(有)好(呢) The weather hasn't got better.

Jose' date=' although you took 还 out but you put 呢 in. The effect of this is that 呢 (in these sentences) suggests that 还 is implied/ understood (= the sentences sound more natural with 还)! Your English translations also suggest the hidden 还 in the Chinese sentences.

天气没好。

天气没好呢。

天气还没好。

天气还没好呢。

Gougou,

I don't know about the first two but I'm sure that the last 2 imply an expectation of change by the speaker, due to the 还 in them.

[Jose]

Hashirikata, I've edited my original post since my point was that the whole "hai (...) ne" was not necessary. I copied and pasted quickly and forgot about the ne.

Let's sum up the different possibilities with the simple "weather is good" example:

1. Permanent state

天气很好 = The weather is good (很 is required as a sortof dummy adverb in these sentences)

天气不好 = The weather is not good. (cf: 天气不很好 = The weather is not very good)

天气好吗? = 天气好不好? = Is the weather good?

2. Change of state

天气好了 = The weather has become better (很 cannot be used here)

天气没好 = The weather has not become better. Note the difference with: 天气不好了 = The weather has become bad (not-good).

天气好了吗? = 天气好了没有? = Has the weather become better?

没 can optionally be followed by 有 with no change of meaning, except at the end of a sentence, where it is always required.

Besides, these "...le" and "mei..." constructions are often used together with 已经 and (还) ... (呢) to emphasise the temporal reference (the fact that something has ALREADY changed or has not changed YET). So, the sentences 天气已经好了 and 天气(还)没好(呢) stress the fact that the weather has already improved, or that it has not done so yet.

As I said before, I think 已经 and 还 are used much more commonly in Chinese than "already" and "yet" in English, so the emphasis implied by these adverbs is probably weaker than in the case of the English words.

[HashiriKata]

Jose, I do not wish to carry on but here are some additional examples of 没 for you to consider. As you'll see, they're just everyday examples of 没 and they don't carry the implication that some state of change is expected (They're just simple statements of past events.)

他没告诉你吗？

那天他们没出去玩儿。

我等待又等待，可是她却始终没来。

(If what you've said about the meaning of 没 is correct, sentences like these shouldn't exist at all)

[gougou]

But the sentences you listed there, HashiriKata, are using real verbs, not adjectives, there seems to be a difference in usage between the two.

[Jose]

Yes, it has never been my intention to say that 没 implies change of state in all cases. I was just replying to gougou's question about its use with adjectives. It is in that case where 没 is used as the negative form of "adj + le" construction, which can be translated into English as "become + adj".

I just wanted to explain the difference in cases like 不好 and 没好, which is what I thought gougou was asking. Because of the similarity in the usage patterns of 不 and 没, it can be tricky to see the difference between sentences like "不知道好不好" ("don't know whether it is good") and "不知道好没好" ("don't know whether it has improved"). It was this usage that I was trying to explain.

Of course, 没 is used in more ways than this. As we all know, it is used to negate the verb 有 meaning "to have", and it is also used to negate other uses of 了, like the perfective aspect of verbs, as in Hashirikata's examples. It can also negate the continuous aspect, I think.

[gougou]

Cheers, Jose and HashiriKata, I think I got it now (at least I successfully convinced myself of that..)

[Kong Junrui]

Thanks everyone. I now have a slightly better understanding of Chinese. >_>