Importance of Knowing Chinese Radicals

[alantin]

On 1/24/2022 at 2:00 AM, phoneticsem said:

Fact Is: Knowing 214 radicals will ease your process of learning Chinese. Why? Because when you know the radicals, you can remember more easily how they combine with each other to form more complex characters.

 

This may seem like semantics, but as explained above by definition radicals CANNOT be combined to form characters, because in each character there is exactly ONE radical.

 

In dictionaries characters are not indexed under multiple radicals but under the single one.

 

 

On 1/24/2022 at 2:00 AM, phoneticsem said:

Radicals can have one of the following functions, or both:

semantic, providing part or whole of the meaning;

phonetics, giving the sound to the character, or something very close to it.

 

The article you linked to is wrong. It uses the term "Radical", where it should use "Character Component". Radicals do not have these described properties. These are properties of Character Components as explained above in this thread.

[phoneticsem]

On 1/24/2022 at 4:56 PM, alantin said:

This may seem like semantics, but as explained above by definition radicals CANNOT be combined to form characters, because in each character there is exactly ONE radical.

 

In dictionaries characters are not indexed under multiple radicals but under the single one.

 

Let me give some back ground. I am learning the Anki Cards of 110 after 8 months and i could not read last 8 months for some personal reasons. I forgot Radicals and most of vocabulary. Usually i used to breakdown the word into components use some connection between the words (mnemonics) and remember the meaning.

 

First 3 words are:

1. 屋檐 wūyán eaves, roof

2. 反驳 fǎnbó refute

3. 摇撼 yáohàn to shake or rock

 

I tried to remember meanings without Radicals. But can not. tree/wood and hand radicals i can remember. Others I can not. 

 

Let us take 屋 ( 尸 + 至) 

 

尸 = corpse; to impersonate the dead; to preside; KangXi radical 44

 

至 = zhì (or dié):  reach, arrive; extremely, very; RSUNICODE: 133.0 This is Radical 133.

 

In each character there can be one or more Radicals is correct statement.

[phoneticsem]

Retrospection:

 

24-Jan: 149 (Front-To-Back) words, I know. Some of the words, I can not recollect, which i learnt yesterday and could remember yesterday.

 

I feel learning all the 214 kangxi radicals by finger tips will reduce my lookup time of new words, as i used to look all components of the word.

 

I could not recollect pronunciation for most Kangxi radicals. I started learning pronunciation also, as I am feeling it will help in future in someway. 

 

 

[phoneticsem]

On 1/24/2022 at 4:56 PM, alantin said:

Radicals do not have these described properties. These are properties of Character Components as explained above in this thread.

 

I know Radicals is not complete list of character components.

 

Do you have consolidated list all Character Components?

 

Unicode characters can be taken as Character Consolidated characters?

[alantin]

Hi @phoneticsem, I'm not quite sure about what you mean by "consolidated character count", but it seems that you're after a full list of character components? I'm not sure about where to find a complete list, but I suggest you do some google searches with the keywords "Chinese phonetic character components" or "Chinese phonetic-semantic compounds". Hack Chinese also has great articles on this.

 

But more importantly I'd like to ask you, why do you need this list? What do you want to do with it? Do you want to do research into the way the characters are constructed or into their etymology? Or do you want to use them to learn and memorize them more effectively?

 

If your answer is the latter, I would suggest a more structured approach than memorizing a list of X hundred character components up front.

 

Because all characters are constructed using one or more components that in them themselves have meaning, it is actually quite beneficial to pay attention to the order you learn them. It doesn't make sense to learn the component "羊" now if you won't need yet. Ideally you would want to study "洋", "樣", "養", "氧" next, but then it would make sense to learn the other components used in those characters first too...

 

I believe the best way is to learn the simple characters/components first, then the characters that use those in different combinations, and then keep adding more components and characters little bit at a time. I am aware of two different different systems for that. The oldest one probably being Heisig's "Remembering the Hanzi", which does exactly what I described and also provides you with roadmap for a mnemonic system for remembering a keyword for each character and their writing. It's shortcoming in mind is that it was originally written for the Japanese characters, so it may not work well for the simplified hanzi, and it doesn't address the pronunciation of the Chinese characters.

 

My personal favorite system is the Mandarin Blueprint which, while having a pretty flashy website and advertisement (some people just don't like it), is a really good extension of the Heisig method. It provides you with a systematic order for studying the characters that begins with simple characters and all the time uses previous characters to introduce more complex ones. It also provides you a mnemonic system for remembering the meaning, writing, and pronunciation of each character, and builds your vocabulary by giving you all the time new words that you can write with the characters that you already know. They also provide you with graded reading material as you progress through their course.

 

Neither Heisig nor Mandarin Blueprint use the radicals or character components though, but instead they introduce "character blocks" that work well for creating mnemonics for memorizing the characters. If your goal is to learn the characters, I highly recommend you give either of those a serious try.

[phoneticsem]

On 1/26/2022 at 11:54 PM, alantin said:

Hi @phoneticsem, I'm not quite sure about what you mean by "consolidated character count"

 

count was a typo. “Consolidated Characters” is correct. what I meant was when I am looking up Complex words, I am wasting too much time on learning subcomponents and keep forgetting them. So I want to reduce that lookup time. For that purpose I need Basic building blocks of Chinese Characters.

 

Now I a learnt Radicals 90%. But making sure to learn 100% and never forget them when waked up from deep sleep.

 

 

On 1/26/2022 at 11:54 PM, alantin said:

either Heisig nor Mandarin Blueprint use the radicals or character components though, but instead they introduce "character blocks" that work well for creating mnemonics for memorizing the characters. If your goal is to learn the characters, I highly recommend you give either of those a serious try.

 

if I start creating Random unique stories as per Mandarin Blue Print, it is tough for me to create unique random stories and again recollecting  that story. i prefer etymologically correct stories. So I follow outlier dictionary for that. And Pleco for characters  lookup.

 

My Goal is: “ understand compositions and score at least 60% in composition in my class examinations.” Learning vocabulary as in it’s own form is not goal, but to understand overall meaning of composition  I need it.

[phoneticsem]

On 1/22/2022 at 3:51 PM, alantin said:

Characters do have phonetic components, but radicals are a little different and I guess they won't map.

 

The pronunciation of Radicals are used in Chinese words as Phonetic compounds Learning of hé advantages as below. 

[phoneticsem]

For hair, I observe 2 Radicals. Is 毛 only used for animal’s  fur? what is the exact difference?

 

髟: biāo hair, shaggy

毛: máo hair, fur, feathers, coarse

彡: shān hair, bristle, beard

[phoneticsem]

Weekly Retrospection: Learning Chinese or any language is

 

1. to know the meaning

2. to pronounce correctly with the tone. The tones are additional to non tonal languages.

3. when you hear the audio or sound of the word you must recollect with the speed of the person talking. the pronunciation and meaning should flash immediately 

4. able to use it in speaking or writing

 

To recollect within the speed of a normal person talking, we must learn Quick recollecting methods. I think initially you should associate and after that the meaning should flash instantly.

 

I know all the radical meanings now except 2 or 3 I will forget some times.My focus is on Pronunciation now.

 

Earlier, I was just marking Anki Card as good or easy, if i know just the meaning. Now even, if i do not know the pronunciation i am marking it as failed or hard. So my score is 68% only for Radical Deck. Let me get more Score by next week say 90%. 

 

Edit: Got 90% this week on 5-Feb.

Target 100% by 13- Feb

[phoneticsem]

匚 fāng: box

匸 xì: cover

凵 qiǎn/kǎn : receptacle (my anki deck gives 凵 pronunciation as qǔ, but could not find it in pleco the same pronunciation)

冂 jiōng wide

 

I am facing issues for these pronunciations, got mixed them. So I collected all at one place, so that it should avoid confusion. 

 

 

[phoneticsem]

On 1/23/2022 at 8:57 PM, mungouk said:

In particular, knowing how to pronounce a radical on its own is of very little use, especially to beginners. I started this way and it made me waste a lot of time when I was trying to get to grips with Hanzi. 

 

What you need to do is start to identify common components (which are sometimes, but not always, radicals), and to understand how the meaning components and sound components of common characters are used. (Since at least 80% of characters are picto-phonetic, which include both types of component.)

 

Olle Linge's Hacking Chinese website has loads of good resources relating to this.

 

This is a good starting point: https://www.hackingchinese.com/phonetic-components-part-1-the-key-to-80-of-all-chinese-characters/ 

 

As you mentioned “80% of characters are phonetic semantic components” is not it better to learn the pronunciation of Radicals as well?

 

I spent lots of time while breaking down the word into sub components and radicals. Now I learnt all radicals in the last 10 days. it took some time, but not very huge amount of time to go thru kangxi radical Anki deck. Infact learning radicals save lots of lookup time in future while breaking down words.

 

I started collecting common components, in a separate  category in Pleco for those components, which I come across. How are you identifying these common components ? any methods?

 

Edit: Each Radical when added more strokes it will form few components. These all together are Basic Building Blocks of Chinese is not it?

 

214 Radicals + Unique characters formed by adding strokes (214 * (5 to 20))  for each Radical = Building Blocks of Chinese Characters 

Any one had objections to the above statement? 

for e.g: 干 can form 10 Unique components as below.

[alantin]

@phoneticsem, you might find this interesting: https://hanzicraft.com/lists/productive-components

 

[mungouk]

On 2/2/2022 at 11:45 AM, phoneticsem said:

As you mentioned “80% of characters are phonetic semantic components” is not it better to learn the pronunciation of Radicals as well?

 

You have missed the point entirely.

 

Nobody needs to know the pronunciation of radicals unless they are maybe a Chinese teacher. 

[phoneticsem]

On 2/5/2022 at 10:10 PM, mungouk said:

Nobody needs to know the pronunciation of radicals

 

Except few of the Kangxi radicals say, 13: 丨亅丿丶乚乛匚匸凵冖卩宀亠 all other pronunciations needs to be learnt as they are pronounced in words the same way.Might be other one or two radicals are exceptions.

[phoneticsem]

On 1/22/2022 at 5:37 PM, Publius said:

English letters have names: F -> eff, H -> aitch, etc. Similarly, for Chinese radicals, you need to know the name by which they're referred to, e.g. 反文, 提手, 斜玉, 走之, etc, not the often obscure and archaic "pronunciation".

 

another point from @Publius 

[TheBigZaboon]

God forgive me for getting involved in this, but please read what @Publius wrote again. He wrote that you are better off knowing the "name" (that is, what Chinese people call the radical when they talk about it), instead of the "pronunciation" of the radical, which is seldom, if ever, used. He does NOT say that it is a good idea to learn the pronunciation. The "names" of the radicals will involve characteristics of the radical, what they look like, or the name or meaning of an actual character if one is used as a radical.

 

You have continued to drag this conversation out by slightly misunderstanding or misinterpreting nearly every piece of advice forum members have tried to give you. That is your right, if you so desire, but you are only hurting yourself and the child you are trying to help.

 

Please read the English in the advice posted a bit more carefully before you answer or post another half understood response to someone else's response to your questions.

 

As another example, your statements on two radicals in one hanzi seems to be predicated on the misunderstanding that regardless of there being two components in one hanzi that can each be a considered a radical on its own, in THAT hanzi, only one component is considered the radical and the other may have another role.

 

People here are trying to help, and there has been a remarkable lack of mean or condescending criticism. Take the advice offered. It's pretty good, and best of all, it's free.

 

Just my unsolicited two rials...

 

TBZ

[phoneticsem]

On 2/6/2022 at 12:09 PM, TheBigZaboon said:

the "name" (that is, what Chinese people call the radical when they talk about it),

 

The Radical, I referred to is one of the 214 Kangxi Radicals.

 

The Name of the Kangxi Radical means? Sorry still I did not get what is Name of Radical? Could you please elaborate?

 

On 2/6/2022 at 12:09 PM, TheBigZaboon said:

in THAT hanzi, only one component is considered the radical and the other may have another role.

 

I think you were referring the below character, I can see 2 Kangxi Radicals. My pleco dictionary confirms the same.

 

屋 ( 尸 + 至) : 尸 = corpse; to impersonate the dead; to preside; KangXi radical 44

 

至 = zhì (or dié):  reach, arrive; extremely, very; RSUNICODE: 133.0 This is Radical 133.

 

I respect everyone’s advice and comments, which are helping me and I mark my Like.  I started learning the 214 kangxi radicals without pronunciation, and when learning Quizlet: Back-To-Front in Anki, I must learn pronunciation also, so learnt.  Now I am confident of 214 Radicals. My Anki Radical Deck Score is 91% and progressing…

[TheBigZaboon]

Please read my sentence again.

 

When Chinese (or even Japanese or Korean people) talk to one another about a radical to, for example, explain to someone else what character is used to write a name or is used in specifying the name of a shop or a place that is not written down in front of them, they use commonly understood "names" for the radicals. These names may not be official, but they're unambiguous and known to every literate native speaker. An English version of that name might be "the roof radical" ( in Japanese, "u kanmuri") the three water drops radical (san sui), the "grass radical" (kusa kanmuri), the "man radical" (ninben). (I must apologize, I have never ever used a radical in Chinese. There is no need. I have only used them many, many years ago looking up the meaning and pronunciations of characters in Japanese.) @Publius has given you examples of those names in Chinese in the quote you provided before my post. In my examples, kanmuri, for example, refers to a crown, so it is always at the top of the character in question. These commonly known names may or may not be the official name of the radical, and are not always related to the pronunciation of the radical if it happens to be a recognized character on its own. But the importance lies in the fact that every literate native speaker knows this name for the radical and what it looks like. It is also unambiguous to the native speaker that there is only ONE portion of that character that can be considered the radical, or unique assignment to one class is impossible.

 

The second issue is then which of the candidates available in a character is the radical.  The problem then becomes how the learner can determine which of the candidates is, in fact, the radical. In the character you included, 屋，when guessing,  the radical in that character would "most likely" be the top portion. This is because the dominant characteristic used for guessing which portion of the character is that the radical is located at the top. Then the choice goes to the left-hand side, or maybe a surrounding box, and then maybe to a stroke or two on the left that can be seen to be carrying over to the bottom. In 草 and 军, the tendency is to first look at the top portion as the radical and try to find it in the dictionary under that classification. For 样  or 队, the most common method would be to first look at the left-most portion as the radical.

 

For non-native speaker beginners, there can be some ambiguity, for example, with 莲 or 随, there are lots of candidates for the radical. The preferred method for guessing would be as outlined above. But for native speakers which one is the radical has been drilled into their heads at school, or encountered when they had to look up a character for the first time in a dictionary. But the names of the possible candidates are not at issue. They are commonly agreed upon and known to everyone. 

 

I hope I haven't confused you more, but I'm not hopeful.

 

TBZ

 

[phoneticsem]

TBZ, your first post and concerns touched me, thanks for your detailed second reply.

 

Before posting the original post on 22-Jan my understanding is clear like this below:

 

莲 = Chinese Character or word 

lián = Pinyin i.e pronunciation 

In this case I have 3 Kangxi Radicals. Any word can have one or more than One Kangxi Radicals. 

辶 chuò

车 chē

艹 cǎo

 

@Publius could you please advise what you are referring as name? Is not it pinyin..I assumed pinyin as name.not sure

 

Here two statements confused me1. What native english speakers think of radicals

2. What native chinese speakers think of radicals? They refer only dominating Radical ? Top to bottom and and left right: Is that the principle?  they follow this approach to identify Dominating Radicals? you are saying only native speakers were taught to know the radicals. 

 

I do not want to spend much time on the above 2 points what the Natives might think is Radical. What I mean is 214 Kangxi radicals. 

 

I learnt all 214 Kangxi Radicals with pronunciation although I started without pronunciation. And I feel, these 13 丨亅丿丶乚乛匚匸凵冖卩宀亠 and few more characters we do not need to learn pronunciation I think. But learning pronunciation for say 20+ characters is will not do any harm, if you do not use we will forget..

 

[phoneticsem]

On 2/6/2022 at 5:45 PM, TheBigZaboon said:

An English version of that name might be "the roof radical" ( in Japanese, "u kanmuri") the three water drops radical (san sui), the "grass radical" (kusa kanmuri), the "man radical" (ninben).

 

are these names equivalent to pinyin, I think. But not sure as you mentioned it in Japanese.