1 v 1 lessons as an advanced learner...worth it?

[杰.克]

On 3/6/2022 at 5:15 PM, KupGriye said:

I would even say that beyond a certain level, a teacher is counterproductive and damaging

Respectfully disagree. There's always more you can learn and something you can do better. There is always a teacher who can improve you. That's why elite level athletes have coaches.

 

 

[Jan Finster]

On 3/6/2022 at 6:15 PM, KupGriye said:

I would even say that beyond a certain level, a teacher is counterproductive and damaging. I'm from a non English speaking country where not only practically everybody studies a foreign language, but they all study the same foreign language (that is, English). Therefor, I am in the perfect position to compare between the two populations - those who get truly fluent in English and those who don't. Both of the populations get the same amount of years and hours of English instruction in school. The group that gets fluent is the one that outside of the classroom reads, listens or speak English. It might be binge watching the seven seasons of Mad Men and then moving on the the next series, it might be playing video games all day long in English, it might be following English language media, it might be a love for Justin Bieber or for Leonard Cohen, and so on. The other group doesn't do any of that stuff. It's that simple of a rule. I remember very well the video games where I got stuck because I didn't understand the English, or plowing through English novels where I didn't know tons of words (The grapes of wrath took me 2 months) or wanting to download and watch woody Allen Films but not understanding a lot of the stuff because they didn;t have subtitles, and then reading the plain scripts.  This is what leads to fluency. 

 

The reason why a teacher can even damage an advanced student is because the mindset of improving your Chinese by switching from teacher A to teacher B or adding another lesson on Wednesdays, just keeps an HSK 6 student from engaging in the activities that will lead to his fluency. Should you take this damage just because the company pays for it?  

 

and by the way, your Chinese probably has thousands of mistake. having a teacher correct one is like a drop in the sea. They will be corrected naturally without you even knowing it after millions of characters you'll read and after many episodes and film you watch. 

 

I strongly disagree.

You describe 2 populations: "a" had English at school and "b" had English at school plus they immersed themselves in English outside of school. It is a non-brainer that "b" will be better. If you want to prove that English lessons are a waste of time, you would need the following 2 populations: "c" people immersed themselves in English and "d" people immersed themselves in English plus they have English lessons and "d" happens to be worse or no better than "c". This will not be the case.

 

It depends on what you want to do with the foreign language. If you plan on writing your Ph.D. thesis or scientific papers in that language, "computer game English" is not very helpful. 

[becky82]

On 3/7/2022 at 1:15 AM, KupGriye said:

The reason why a teacher can even damage an advanced student is because the mindset of improving your Chinese by switching from teacher A to teacher B or adding another lesson on Wednesdays, just keeps an HSK 6 student from engaging in the activities that will lead to his fluency. Should you take this damage just because the company pays for it?  

 

I agree that bad classes can harm your Chinese.  I've had multiple one-on-one classes that I consider worse than no class.  Teachers optimize profit, not student progress.  Many teachers, without telling you (or maybe out of laziness), decide not to point out your mistakes (so you overestimate your improvement and pay for more classes).  Meanwhile, you're consolidating bad habits, assuming your teacher would say something if you're making mistakes.

 

I've also encountered multiple teachers who simply don't know how to teach higher level students (and are not willing to admit it).  I've wasted time sitting in their classes, hearing about what my teacher had for lunch that day.  Or I patiently sit there while they mull over the definition of a word for 15 minutes, while I'm thinking: gee, I could have looked it up in the dictionary 10 times over by now.  I find myself sticking with them because I don't want to hurt their feelings.

 

There's a lot of politics involved with having a private teacher.  If you explain to them you don't like a certain teaching method and want to use another method, you might hurt your teacher's feelings, and they are subsequently demotivated (or get revenge) and start half-assing your classes.  And you can end up involved in all this drama, and unable to escape because of contracts.

 

In theory, a teacher can help.  But, the private teacher market is rife with incompetence.

[Moshen]

Quote

I agree that bad classes can harm your Chinese.  I've had multiple one-on-one classes that I consider worse than no class. 

 

I don't understand why someone who's not happy with a one-on-one teacher/tutor/coach wouldn't just quit them and find someone else.  Sure, you might hurt their feelings, but that's no different from having a car mechanic or money manager that you're not happy with.

[matteo]

Agree with Moshen, also I can think of literally nothing which is not harmful if done very badly and I don't see how that is a valid argument pro or against that particular activity.

[Flickserve]

I do sports and I get different one to one coaches depending on the training I want.

 

Mainly, I have coaches who can provide highly specialised training. Ex-international professional players. Kind of expensive though.

 

But I also get lower level coaches or players who I can use as practice partners. These coaches are also very good regularly playing in matches and tournaments and are top amateur players. Each of them has some specific qualities and sometimes I will pick one according to this. An obvious one would be left handedness.

 

There's another rank of coaches who mainly focus on beginners. I never employ these coaches to help me as their style is not applicable to my situation.

 

 

At an advanced level, I see getting Chinese tutors as no different. If I was particularly into medicine, I wouldn't look for a Chinese tutor who is a generic Chinese tutor. I would probably look for a person who has a background in medicine and teaching Chinese, not someone who has worked in accounting.

 

Advanced learners should be taking charge of their learning. If the tutor is not a match, then move on but it's also a two way process. The learner is best off having an idea of the direction of what they want to learn. I see no point in sticking with a teacher so as to not hurt their feelings and you as the learner getting frustrated. That situation, I would say is not the fault of the teacher, but of the learner. 

[suMMit]

On 3/7/2022 at 1:15 AM, KupGriye said:

The reason why a teacher can even damage an advanced student is because the mindset of improving your Chinese by switching from teacher A to teacher B or adding another lesson on Wednesdays, just keeps an HSK 6 student from engaging in the activities that will lead to his fluency. Should you take this damage just because the company pays for it?  

Why can't you do both, a session with a teacher on Wednesdays AND engage in activities(that will lead to fluency)?

[abcdefg]

On 3/9/2022 at 7:20 PM, Flickserve said:

I do sports and I get different one to one coaches depending on the training I want.

 

Is your sport badminton? 羽毛球

 

On 3/9/2022 at 7:20 PM, Flickserve said:

The learner is best off having an idea of the direction of what they want to learn.

Agree! Very important in my experience. 

[杰.克]

On 3/10/2022 at 12:27 AM, matteo said:

Agree with Moshen, also I can think of literally nothing which is not harmful if done very badly and I don't see how that is a valid argument pro or against that particular activity.

 

Well put and totally agree. It's strange to me this even has to be said. It should just be assumed.

Of course "BAD" teachers or "BAD" classes can be harmful. But thats like saying a "BAD" Doctor (Harold Shipman anyone?) can be harmful, it doesn't mean overall you don't want any healthcare!

[Flickserve]

On 3/10/2022 at 2:25 PM, abcdefg said:

Is your sport badminton? 羽毛球

Yes. I am one of the best players in my age group in Hong Kong and also organise my daughter’s training (she’s an elite player for her age group). 
 

I find there are many parallels with language learning although there is no competitive aspect with languages and self study plays a more important component.
 

Many people just “train” in the sport without really making fundamental improvements. I think that’s ok. I see these people have no real desire to play competitions and employ a coach as a hitting partner. That allows them to hit many shuttlecocks in one hour, have the feeling of exercise and practice. They are not pushing themselves to even 80% physicality. You wouldn’t call these learners advanced level and they have fulfilled their objectives. This exactly how I would place myself for language learning - comfortable intermediate, can make light conversation over a variety of topics, understand the answers and generally can communicate well enough not to butcher the language. I “could” target being better but I don’t have that internal motivation for various reasons. It does mean that the pool of teachers that can teach me is large!
 

 

However, for the advanced language learner, what’s their target? It’s all very individual. I would say being able to liberally and appropriately use 成語 is a valued skill as is being able to use formal and polite Chinese in formal discussion. If one was involved in manufacturing, knowing how to to discuss in mandarin the processes and quality control issues and trouble shoot them, now that’s what I call advanced level. Not every professional teacher can explain manufacturing but that’s no disrespect to the 99% of them. 

[abcdefg]

On 3/10/2022 at 2:43 AM, Flickserve said:

Yes. I am one of the best players in my age group in Hong Kong and also organise my daughter’s training (she’s an elite player for her age group)... I find there are many parallels with language learning although there is no competitive aspect with languages and self study plays a more important component.

 

Great to have achieved mastery in a demanding sport like that!

 

I thought I remembered your talking about badminton tournaments and even trips to playoffs on the mainland in posts a couple years back. And I think I recall your talking about having to learn some specialized language to make the sport more enjoyable in a Chinese speaking environment. And, through helping train your daughter, you have doubtless had to expand your "badminton vocab" even more.  

 

I had to pick up some specialized language along the way when learning to cook Chinese food and in order to studying Chinese tea. Language learned like that, seems to stick better in my brain than when I just memorize a textbook list. Probably because I must immediately use the new vocabulary in real life; it's active instead of passive. Lots of "memory hooks" present themselves.

 

New words and phrases are part of a new world: they allow me to enter a new world and become a participant in it.  

 

[markhavemann]

On 3/10/2022 at 9:20 AM, Flickserve said:

Mainly, I have coaches who can provide highly specialised training. Ex-international professional players. Kind of expensive though.

 

But I also get lower level coaches or players who I can use as practice partners. These coaches are also very good regularly playing in matches and tournaments and are top amateur players. Each of them has some specific qualities and sometimes I will pick one according to this. An obvious one would be left handedness.

What a pity the site doesn't have a "best answer" type feature like Stackoverflow. Such a good answer should be right at the top for anyone who stumbles on this post in the future.