Is there a safe social media app that the government can't listen in to, that 'doesn't' require a VPN?

[Shazmataz]

Hello. I want to be able to speak freely with family and friends without worrying that I might say something the Chinese government might not agree with. I have tried using WhatsApp but my VPN often disconnects my conversation. Does anyone know of an app that doesn't require a VPN but offers end-to-end encryption- so I know nobody else is ever listening in?

[杰娃娃]

It might be a bit difficult to set up, but you could try using XMPP. There are clients available for most platforms, and there are many servers to choose from or you can host it yourself.

[Jan Finster]

I am not sure there is a universally safe way. At least, if I were to say something really problematic in a totalitarian regime, I would probably only do so via super encrypted files.

 

Maybe I am naive, but I do not think the Chinese government really cares, if you, as a foreigner, say something mild to moderately critical in a private setting to outsiders. After all, this is a country of 1.4 billion people with millions of foreign residents and tourists. Do you think they all  just talk about roses and daisies? In other words, if they notice it, your mild to moderate criticism is just barely noticeable "noise".

[Insectosaurus]

On 4/10/2022 at 10:13 AM, Jan Finster said:

as a foreigner

 

I agree. Unless you're a journalist or draw attention to yourself, I don't think you will be in trouble. Having a foreign passport will get you a long way.

[889]

一人一档

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-uses-ai-software-improve-its-surveillance-capabilities-2022-04-08/

[markhavemann]

"Safe", so that implies that you think you are in some kind of danger.... Unless you are actively spreading anti government sentiments on a fairly large scale or doing something grossly illegal, I'm pretty sure you are good. 

 

Not sure about now, but a few years ago I knew people who were buying weed and comminicating with the people they were buying it from over wechat. Nobody got arrested or even warned. 

 

Even if the government cared, why would you get into trouble because of what someone else says to you over wechat? Have you ever heard of that happening to ANY foreigner in China. It would be on the news in about two seconds since the media reaaaally loves the anti China stories, so you can pretty much be sure that it hasn't. 

 

I'm always a little shocked at the really crazy ideas that people have about China. Just let common sense guide you.

 

 

 

 

[PerpetualChange]

On 4/13/2022 at 6:40 AM, markhavemann said:

Not sure about now, but a few years ago I knew people who were buying weed and comminicating with the people they were buying it from over wechat. Nobody got arrested or even warned.

 

That is some incredibly ill-advised "in-China" behavior lol 

 

[jannesan]

On 4/13/2022 at 12:40 PM, markhavemann said:

I'm always a little shocked at the really crazy ideas that people have about China. Just let common sense guide you.

 

I’m always a little shocked how quickly people who want to have private communications are being dismissed by others with “the government doesn’t care what you say anyways”. 

 

A little quote I like on this topic (Snowden): 

 

Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say.

[PerpetualChange]

The main idea of not worrying about your privacy stems from feeling privileged enough to think that you are above the laws or have the backing of a strong enough government that you won't get in trouble. Such things are extremely ephemeral and the tides can turn very quickly as many laowai have learned the hard way over the years.

[vellocet]

On 4/13/2022 at 6:40 PM, markhavemann said:

Not sure about now, but a few years ago I knew people who were buying weed and comminicating with the people they were buying it from over wechat. Nobody got arrested or even warned. 

I know a couple of foreigners who got busted for buying a rather large quantity and sending the photos of the brick to each other on Wechat.  They were lucky to get off with only deportation and no prison time.  

[markhavemann]

 

On 4/13/2022 at 7:34 PM, jannesan said:

Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say.

Even in the west saying the wrong thing at the wrong time can get you in a lot of trouble. This kind of polarized view of the idea of free speech and privacy being the ultimate good is unrealistic.

 

Saying not allowing encrypted communication is bad because it can be abused is like saying knives are bad because they can kill, then taking scalpels away from surgeons.

 

If allowing some government worker to see the nudes that I sent over wechat contributes to stopping child pornography, forced prostitution, human trafficing, tax evasion, corruption, some old lady from being scammed out of her pension money, or any other of the many miserable things in the world that are made so easy and untracable by fully secure encrypted communication, then yes I will happily give that up and be a person who has "nothing to hide" and "nothing to say". 

 

 

[Insectosaurus]

On 4/13/2022 at 3:16 PM, markhavemann said:

Even in the west saying the wrong thing at the wrong time can get you in a lot of trouble.

 

In my country I can tell my prime minister he's fat and probably likes to jerk off while watching Teletubbies. I can tell that directly to his face, with no fears of repercussions. In China a journalist is not allowed to argue for regime change. I'm sick and tired of comments arguing these situations are kind of the same.

[Moshen]

Quote

This kind of polarized view of the idea of free speech and privacy being the ultimate good is unrealistic.

 

The person who started this conversation didn't say that privacy is an ultimate good.  It's simply an important value for a lot of people.

 

I actually quit going to one dentist who was otherwise very good because his treatment stalls had no privacy.  I could hear every word, every sound in the next booth (and vice versa).  When I complained, the dentist didn't understand one bit.  "They don't know you and you don't know them.  So what's the big deal?"  Some people just care.  Period.

 

Just as I would rather not undress on a stage in front of strangers, I would rather not have others listening to my phone conversations.  If you don't feel that way, you need to accept that others do.

[PerpetualChange]

@markhavemannyou are making some good theoretical points but it's just horrible advice. Will you be OK? Probably... should you bank on it? I don't know. No one should ever break the law in a foreign country, for many reasons. It's horrible advice. Of course it's still breaking the law if you break it on a secure chat platform. Anyone planning to go to China should figure that they're going to give their weed habit a break for the duration they're there. 

[Jan Finster]

On 4/13/2022 at 3:20 PM, Insectosaurus said:

In my country I can tell my prime minister he's fat and probably likes to jerk off while watching Teletubbies. I can tell that directly to his face, with no fears of repercussions. In China a journalist is not allowed to argue for regime change. I'm sick and tired of comments arguing these situations are kind of the same.

 

Yes and no. I would argue not everyone in your country can do this without severe consequences. If you are a random citizen, maybe you can. If you are a member of his cabinet, or if you are the summer Intern, I am dead-certain this has very negative consequences for your career. This is basically the same with every "company". Try calling your direct supervisor a wanker in front of his boss and see what happens ?

 

On 4/13/2022 at 12:40 PM, markhavemann said:

Even if the government cared, why would you get into trouble because of what someone else says to you over wechat? Have you ever heard of that happening to ANY foreigner in China. It would be on the news in about two seconds since the media reaaaally loves the anti China stories, so you can pretty much be sure that it hasn't. 

 

I think one argument that is often presented boils down to the following: the government may not care, if you as a foreigner smoke weed, run a red light, jay-walk, or criticise the government as long as you do not get on their radar for something else. If you do, then they might dig into their system and find lots of small infractions that might (in sum) cause you disproportional trouble (a bit like couples arguing with each other about something trivial and then both partners list everything that has ever annoyed them about each other since the day they met....). Probably this is also just paranoia,  who knows!?

 

[Insectosaurus]

On 4/14/2022 at 10:49 PM, Jan Finster said:

Yes and no.

 

The argument was clearly about what rights you as an individual have against the state.

 

On 4/14/2022 at 10:49 PM, Jan Finster said:

If you are a random citizen, maybe you can. If you are a member of his cabinet, or if you are the summer Intern, I am dead-certain this has very negative consequences for your career.

 

If a famous comedian said the same thing on state TV, nothing would happen. If a news anchor did it, he would probably get fired. Not because he's broken any laws, but because his company don't think he's performing his work in the manner he should.

[markhavemann]

On 4/13/2022 at 9:20 PM, Insectosaurus said:

In my country I can tell my prime minister he's fat and probably likes to jerk off while watching Teletubbies. I can tell that directly to his face, with no fears of repercussions.

Are you trying to present this as a positive? I can't really tell... Imagine a family in which a child could do that to their parents' faces without repercussions. I wouldn't respect the children, the parents, or the family unit as a whole... 

 

On 4/13/2022 at 9:38 PM, Moshen said:

I actually quit going to one dentist who was otherwise very good because his treatment stalls had no privacy. 

I would absolutely do the same. But if you stopped going to the dentist at all because two people were peering into your mouth every time you went (a qualified dentist and their assistant), invading your personal space, and your privacy by extension, then that would be silly. Like I said, having a polarised view of privacy (or anything else) is easy but not very useful.

 

I'm not saying that everyone should be able to read everyone else's messages. I'm saying that power in the right hands is a good thing, and I'm also saying that despite whatever most people think about China, the government as a unit is not going to systematically abuse that power and make trouble for someone just because their family members send them anti China messages, or ask about topics like Xinjiang. 

 

(I should add that of course I'm not saying anyone should feel safe buying weed or doing illegal things on wechat, or at all. Like I said, let common sense guide you)

 

Edit:

So my answer is, inform yourself on the laws in China. Schools and organisations often send out flyers and stuff explaining the important bits (don't spread your religion, don't sell and buy drugs, etc). If you plan to break these rules, get a VPN and use another platform. If not, don't worry about it and keep using wechat.

[Insectosaurus]

On 4/15/2022 at 12:25 PM, markhavemann said:

I wouldn't respect the children, the parents, or the family unit as a whole... 

 

A country is not a family and the prime minister is not my father.

 

On 4/15/2022 at 12:25 PM, markhavemann said:

Are you trying to present this as a positive?

 

That the state can't lock people up because of them being rude to their regimes? The fact that journalists here can argue for regime change? Yes, and yes.

[jamsign8]

can we use the whatsapp without VPN in chaina ??

[Jellyfish]

Not sure if this is relevant as it isn't end to end encrypted but Discord voice channels work without VPN if you enter them with a VPN first and then turn it off. That was one of those happy coincidence discoveries I made while playing D&D - I had the same issue you described above, constant freezing due to already non-stellar wifi connection plus VPN, but when I turned off my VPN fully expecting to freeze or get booted, the connection stabilised immediately and I enjoyed a crystal clear voice and video chat for the rest of the session.

(Annoyingly, my dndbeyond account and roll20 still require a VPN for rolls for reasons that are truly beyond me but this won't affect normal people who don't need to roll dice and pretend to be a fantasy character to interact with friends and family lol.)