Resources for immersion, Chinese media, TV dramas, books, audiobook, guides to native platforms & more

[MoonIvy]

I'll like to share with you a website myself and other Chinese language learners have been working on over the last few months https://heavenlypath.notion.site/

Some of you may be familiar with the reading guide and resource I posted a while back. We've moved all of that onto a new website, so that everything is in one place. 

You'll find recommendations on TV dramas, variety show, audiobooks, books, games and much more. We also have guides on various topics including our famous reading guide (From Beginner to Native novels), a brand new reading speed guide and a guide to native reading apps and platforms.

New media, resources and guides are added regularly. We're currently working on a listening guide, and a guide on Chinese Mythology and Legends. So be sure to check it regularly.

Recommendations, suggestions and feedback is always welcome, so please do let me know if you have any thoughts or questions.

[Moshen]

I see you've done a good bit of curating there, but your commentary is geared to a much higher level of technical knowledge and sophistication than I have.  In addition, you assume readers are already familiar with Chinese websites/services.  So I am sorry to say, but in its present incarnation trying to follow your suggestions simply gives me a headache.

 

I've made this comment before about some of your posts here.  For instance, in the main table of contents on your site you have "manhua" and "donghua."  You assume everyone already knows these terms.

 

I looked at your description of Weixin Dushu, and I think I would need to devote an hour or more to reading and rereading it in order to understand it.

 

Some other sites break things down much more effectively for those who aren't tech-savvy.  For instance, I bookmarked https://themandarincornerblog.com/2018/01/11/learn-with-a-kindle/ because I could understand the whole process fairly easily.

 

Maybe one way to deal with this is just to state up front that your curation suggestions are for people who... [and give a description of what you're assuming].

[MoonIvy]

@Moshen It'll be great if you could go into a bit more detail on parts you struggle with. At the moment, most users of the website seem to be those that are already quite advanced in Chinese (so just looking for media suggestions) and those that are already have some knowledge of Chinese media. We've not had any feedback similar to yours. Since it takes a lot to time to write guides, we can't cater for everyone of all levels, but if you could provide some details, we would have a better understanding of what others struggle with. It seems that you are interested in Chinese media but you're not sure where to start or how to go about using all these Chinese platforms?

[Moshen]

It would be a pity if you deliberately kept your suggestions above the head of those who aren't already familiar with Chinese media.  If your audience is as you described, I don't quite understand why your website is in English rather than in Chinese.  But obviously, it's your site and you can fashion it as you please.

[MoonIvy]

@MoshenThere must be a misunderstanding, we're not deliberately targeting those that are familiar with Chinese media. All this started from conversations many many months ago where members of our Discord community were looking for Chinese content they could try that were graded by level, it slowly went from a spreadsheet to this website. My apologies if I gave you the wrong impression. Like I said, we only started this a few months ago and it all takes time. This is just something myself and others work on when we have free time, it isn't our full time job. 

Thanks for your feedback. I've noted down that down that we need detailed guides to help learners start to use these platforms.

In the mean time, you can try out Himalaya (international Ximalaya) if you're into audiobooks or podcast, you can keep the UI in English and switch the content to Chinese and it'll give you recommendations in Chinese. That's the same for a manhua (Chinese comic) app called Bilibili Comic, again you can keep the UI in English and switch the content to Chinese. Both of these can be downloaded from Apple or Google app store. Both are made for international/oversea users, so you can login with Facebook/Google etc. I find these to be quite nice for getting into native content without taking the massive step into those crazy Chinese websites. Apologies, this isn't very detailed, but there's only so much I can write here without spending hours writing a full blown guide. 

I can see you're quite frustrated, you must have been trying to find something to help you get into native platforms for a while?

[Rotasu]

On 4/19/2022 at 3:19 PM, Moshen said:

Most of what I read is geared for advanced intermediate/advanced Chinese learners but I would like to make the leap to native Chinese materials. 

You say you want to start using native Chinese material but can't be bothered to google/look up two words?

 

On 4/19/2022 at 2:09 PM, Moshen said:

assume readers are already familiar with Chinese websites/services.

For someone that says they are an Advanced Intermediate/Advanced learner, if you can't look at a Chinese site and find the word '第一章', that is on you.

 

On 4/19/2022 at 3:19 PM, Moshen said:

  I find going to all-Chinese websites intimidating

Again, that is something you need to work on and not take your angry out on someone just trying to provide resources for people who aren't afraid to read Chinese on a Chinese site.

 

@MoonIvy I'm sorry you had to see such comments like that. From a lurker, your site is fine and your 'Comprehensive Reading Guide' is a great resources for people who want to start reading as soon as possible.

[malazann]

your notion site looks a lot better than last time (and I was already happy with it!). Your teams efforts is well appreciated. And I find that the chinese apps I've tried are all pretty similar, and generally well-designed. But it's definitely intimidating at first

[MoonIvy]

On 4/20/2022 at 12:44 AM, Rotasu said:

I'm sorry you had to see such comments like that.

It's okay! Thank you for your lovely comment, much appreciated. I think Moshen is just super frustrated at the lack of guides catered for a beginner and someone completely new to Chinese culture and media. Chinese platforms are very intimidating, especially so for someone that isn't tech savvy. There's a tiny misunderstanding too, he said he reads content geared for advanced intermediate/advanced Chinese learners, the keyword here is "learner". Sadly, those type of content is equal to beginner in the big native world, so it seems that he's still far from "advanced" and being able to use native Chinese platforms. It's very understandable that's he frustrated. Even though his wording comes across as super angry and seems to attacking me, he has made a valid point. At the moment, we don't offer anything that's catered for a beginner, or anything that really help introduce someone to Chinese media. It's something we can look to work on at some point. A listening and mythology guide is highly requested at the moment, so we're going to work on that first.

 

On 4/20/2022 at 4:31 AM, malazann said:

And I find that the chinese apps I've tried are all pretty similar, and generally well-designed.

Firstly, thanks for your positive feedback, we're always working on new things. So in regards to these Chinese apps, once you get use to them, most are very similar. The only odd one is 晋江文学城, their website and app is just terrible! The largest part is understanding the literature categories as they're quite different from English literature. Actually, I find they all lack a good search and filter feature, it seems they like to rely on rankings and for the algorithm to provide recommendations, which is super annoying. 

[MoonIvy]

 ---

[Lu]

Folks, please assume good things of each other, and approach each other accordingly. Or don't reply at all, that's fine too. This can be a good thread for everyone if you assume the other person wants to be helped with something/is willing to help with that thing. I've hidden a few posts that were unhelpful. Do try again.

[Moshen]

I'm not sure why my comment was deleted, but I will try again.

 

My point was that the resource guide, well-intentioned as it is, is an example of "the curse of knowledge" at work.  This is a well-documented psychological phenomenon in which we mistakenly assume that our audience already understands certain things that we know.  So we don't explain things that should be explained.  It is a blind spot that we're all subject to and that one can learn to overcome - if one wants to and if one doesn't simply dismiss those who can't follow along as ___ (insert some negative adjective there). 

 

For instance, I once met someone who loved classical music but had had no musical education whatsoever.  I pulled out a recorder and said, "I'll teach you to play a scale."  He responded, "What's a scale?"  My mouth fell open.  It wasn't that he was stupid, or even that he was ignorant.  It was that it had never occurred to me that knowing nothing might include not knowing what a scale was.  I'd never met anyone who didn't know that.  But if I were a teacher, or providing music-related information, I would communicate better and include more people in my audience realizing that some people did not know what a scale was.  Unless I was 100% certain that I wanted not to offer anything to people at that level.

[MoonIvy]

We're aware that it isn't perfect, and there's definitely room for improvement. It's why I asked for suggestions and feedback, hoping for some detailed construction feedback that we can action.

All I really wanted was a further explanation and clarification of what needs demystifying. This is an example of "the curse of knowledge" here, no? Like you're assuming I know what you know and what you don't know? I was hoping you'll be able to point out more specifically which phases, words etc that is confusing, so that it's super clear where the knowledge gap is. More information means we can provide better guides that will help learners. I just wanted more details...

 

We're really not deliberately pushing people away, I don't really know where that came from. 

We're not professional or teachers, we're just a bunch of learners trying to help out the community, in our spare time between work and school.

[vellocet]

It's just odd that the entire page is in English, and yet instead of comics it says manhua and instead of animation it says donghua.  I'm sure it's a fine site but like the man said, people who are already familiar with a thing will think they can speak in a sort of shorthand to an audience of other insiders.  Chinese pedagogy is pretty bad about this, I remember the BLCUP book throwing out the term "tone sandhi" without bothering to define it, simply assuming it was something everyone already understood.  There are tons of recipes I read and couldn't understand because whoever wrote it assumed the reader was also a professional chef and things didn't need to be explained.  Anyway, the site looks great.

[Rotasu]

I have been in the language learning community for several years and never have I seen such odd opinion in my life.

On 4/20/2022 at 5:02 PM, vellocet said:

It's just odd that the entire page is in English, and yet instead of comics it says manhua and instead of animation it says donghua.

You find it odd that a Chinese romanization of a Chinese word is on a Chinese resource site? Do you also think it is odd that manga isn't just called comics or that anime isn't just called animation?

 

On 4/20/2022 at 1:07 PM, Moshen said:

So we don't explain things that should be explained.

Once again, you are on the internet. If you do not understand something, go find out what it means. As the site says: "We want to share with you all the best resources and articles of Chinese media we’ve found during our Chinese learning journey. Our aim is not to teach you Chinese, but rather to provide you with tips, guidance, and useful resources - and an introduction to the world of native Chinese media and entertainment to aid you in your immersion journey." If you do not understand what the Chinese media is then that resources list is not for you.

 

 

[MoonIvy]

On 4/20/2022 at 10:37 PM, Rotasu said:

If you do not understand what the Chinese media is then that resources list is not for you.

I think you're right. It seems having the culturally correct term on the homepage seems to be a show stopper. So for the moment, it's best to say that the resource is for those that's already familiar with Chinese media, and know what they're looking for. 

Never expected posted a link would turn into such an interesting discussion.

[MTH123]

I also want to say that I really don’t think anyone needs to be so sensitive on this forum. This forum is unlike most forums. The people here are helpful, well meaning, and nice. I would also go as far as to say they are humble, because learning Chinese is a many year process that is very humbling. Relax and just enjoy this forum and the people in it!

[alantin]

I remember the first guide and also was wondering "what on earth is manhua and donghua" for a while. I did end up googling it and never thought anything more about it before seeing these discussions about it. It is not a commonly used word in the English language but a niche word so if you want to make the page more accessible for the non-initiated, why not just call it comics or add (Chinese comics) after it the first time the word is used.

 

In my line of work we have a lot of technical jargon I need to explain to people without the same background and I personally try to explain things in a way my mom would understand. I think that's a good guide when trying to find your blind spots. All in all I think this is a pretty trivial thing to get upset about and I think both points of views presented have a point.

Thanks to @MoonIvy and @Rotasu for putting that site together!


P.s. What is a scale?

[Rotasu]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:32 PM, alantin said:

Thanks to @MoonIvy and @Rotasu for putting that site together!

I am not a part of the team. Just a lurker that felt the comments were not fair.

 

On 4/21/2022 at 12:32 PM, alantin said:

It is not a commonly used word in the English language

But it is a Chinese word on a Chinese resource list x.x Why would they need to make the page more accessible to people who are not learning Chinese or not looking for resources in those categories? At one point, I also had to look up what donghua and at no point did I feel need to shame the person for using a word I hadn't yet learned yet.

 

Should they also not include the word 'hanzi' and just put 'Chinese characters'? Should they not include the Chinese name of the resources because characters aren't used in the English language?? I don't understand how it is wrong to put the Chinese name of a Chinese media on a Chinese resources list for Chinese learners @.@

 

I dont know. Honestly, at this point, the mods should just lock this topic because this back and forth is only going to continue. If people have actual suggestions, they can be shared to the team on the website.

[alantin]

On 4/21/2022 at 8:25 PM, Rotasu said:

I am not a part of the team. Just a lurker that felt the comments were not fair.

 

I thought you were a contributor. lol.

 

On 4/21/2022 at 8:25 PM, Rotasu said:

I don't understand how it is wrong to put the Chinese name of a Chinese media on a Chinese resources list for Chinese learners @.@

I didn't suggest it was wrong. I myself am indifferent either ways and I don't have a problem looking up niche words when I encounter them. I merely tried to give suggestions in a positive manner because @MoonIvy requested them and to also let them know that Moshen was not the only one unfamiliar with those words.

I also think that it is unfair to suggest that an "advanced learner" (whatever that is) should know what manhua is. That is not a standard way of writing it in the Chinese language and seems to be more a loanword amid the English text. I have zero interest in the genre and have been studying Chinese intensively for years while never coming across the word. I actually didn't ever register it as a Chinese loan word the first time I saw it. The funny thing is that, knowing Japanese, I would have immediately recognized it if it had been written in Chinese characters 漫画 (which actually seems to be done on the new site! ?).

 

On 4/21/2022 at 8:25 PM, Rotasu said:

Should they also not include the word 'hanzi' and just put 'Chinese characters'?

 

At a general level I think you have a point here. I do think code switching (changing between languages mid sentence or combining languages) isn't very elegant in writing if there is a native word available to describe the same thing. I don't think "hanzi" is a commonly understood loanword either and if you are writing English, then in general I think you should aspire to stick to English. But like said, on their site the audience can be expected to know some commonly used Chinese loan words and maybe even look up some new ones. And to be fair, languages loan from each other all the time and I believe "manhua" is a perfect example of that loaning. The author may feel the word "comics" doesn't capture what they want to convey or that it conjures images of wrong kinds of comics, so they choose to loan a word from Chinese instead. In the end it may become a commonly recognized word like I believe "manga" has. Nothing wrong with that. It's normal evolution of language.

To remember the original context

On 4/19/2022 at 6:33 PM, MoonIvy said:

Recommendations, suggestions and feedback is always welcome, so please do let me know if you have any thoughts or questions.

My thoughts are not meant as an attack or negative criticism to anyone and I do not mean them to be read as some kinds of denials to use some terms. Just trying to give my two cents as requested.

[alantin]

@MoonIvy I don't know if it is easy to do, but would it be possible to combine categories in the filters?

 

I took a look at the television shows listed and would be thrilled to have it only show everything that was at the same time "Modern" and "Non-Romance" ?