How to determine your proficiency level

[dakonglong]

Hi All,

 

Today I was updating my resume and applying for a few jobs, as a do from time to time to test the market. One of the companies I applied to was the US subsidiary of a Chinese company, and it got me thinking, at what point can you describe your Chinese as proficient, conversational or something else on your resume?

 

At this point I have read 4 1/2 novels in Chinese and I know 7,000+ words (though I can infer many more because at this point I already know most of the characters I encounter). I can understand about half of what I hear on TV and I can have a pretty fluid conversation with my teacher for an hour or more at a time.

 

In short, I'm pretty comfortable with reading and writing, decently comfortable with listening, and my speaking is passable, but somewhat out of practice.

 

The closest match that I could come up with for this level was "Conversational" or "Limited Working Proficiency".

 

Does this seem reasonable? If not, at what point would you describe yourself as having achieved these levels? If these designations are not appropriate, which ones would be better?

 

Thanks!

[Moshen]

If you Google "Chinese proficiency tests online free" you will see some online sites that test your proficiency and give you an official label for it.

 

I recently did one such test for Spanish and was surprised to see that I rated as "C1" - fluent.  My listening and reading are that good but my speaking is not - and the assessment didn't directly test speaking, of course.

[vellocet]

It's a resume.  Just lie.  Nobody actually reads them, they're scanned by HR software that looks for keywords.  Don't match the keyword, you'll never get an interview.  

[Insectosaurus]

@vellocet Why apply for a job you are not qualified to perform? Also, at least here in Sweden, in many fields applications are certainly read. In academia in minute detail.

[alantin]

On 4/30/2022 at 2:37 PM, vellocet said:

It's a resume.  Just lie.  Nobody actually reads them, they're scanned by HR software that looks for keywords.  Don't match the keyword, you'll never get an interview.  

 

As someone who has been involved in a few recruitments, and incidentally have read quite a few resumes, I strongly resent this. It must be the single worst suggestion I've ever read regarding job hunting in my entire life. Yeah, it goes through the HR system, but people do read them and if someone lies in a resume to us, and especially if it is pertinent to the job, they may get into an interview, but the lie is likely going to be revealed there and they will have shown that they are a dishonest person. We would never hire someone like that. If they make it through the interviews, then it is going to certainly come out during the probationary period. They'll get let go and will have wasted a lot of their own time and the company's resources with their dishonesty since the recruitment will have to be started over.

 

I think this is about how it goes in any respectable Finnish company at least. Can't see why it would be different elsewhere.

 

 

@dakonglong, how about reading through the CEFRL level descriptions and pick the one that sounds about right. There is probably some mapping with that to what is commonly meant with "Conversational" or "Limited Working Proficiency". But I wonder if those have any clear definitions. If you think that you could get through a work related internal meeting with someone in Chinese, then I'd call that Limited Working Proficiency. Or you could meet with a teacher who teaches business Chinese and ask where they would put you.

[vellocet]

If you don't have the right keywords in your resume, you'll never make it through the HR system. It takes quite a while for a human to read your resume.  Are you seriously suggesting to show respect to a rigged system designed to harm your interests?  

[alantin]

On 5/1/2022 at 8:09 AM, vellocet said:

Are you seriously suggesting to show respect to a rigged system designed to harm your interests?  

 

I'm describing how it is going to play out if someone lies to us in a resume.

 

I'm curious about "a rigged system designed to harm your interests". we had to change our recruitment system this year, so our HR just reviewed a few options currently out there and I led the implementation. The systems are designed to help the companies collect and compare candidate information as efficiently as possible. This is both in the interests of the company and the applicant as the goal is to find the best match for the vacancy and the team looking to fill it. They work very similarly as tools to collect resumes and candidate information for the HR people to peruse. In the end it is still a person, or multiple people, who read each and every one in the end when finding candidates.

 

The best way to stand out of the crowd is to give the hiring manager a call after submitting the application.

 

But it seems that you have more intimate knowledge of recruiting and these systems than I do... Maybe you could describe exactly how this rigging works and why it is designed to harm the applicant's interests? Also why do you think this applies to the company @dakonglong is applying for? If the company actively doing that kind of rigging in order to harm applicants' interests, I think that would be a very good reason not to apply to work there.

[大块头]

@dakonglong if you think Chinese proficiency will help you get a job then consider taking a proficiency test like the HSK, TOCFL, or the ACTFL OPI. No exam score is a perfect measure of language ability, but it's more precise and objective than any self-assessment.

[vellocet]

On 5/1/2022 at 2:19 PM, alantin said:

I'm describing how it is going to play out if someone lies to us in a resume.

Ohhhhhh...I see.  You're one of the bosses.  

 

I'm describing how to beat the system you set up as a worker.  I see how you misunderstood what I was saying.  No wonder you're angry.

[Moshen]

Quote

Ohhhhhh...I see.  You're one of the bosses.  

 

I'm describing how to beat the system you set up as a worker.  I see how you misunderstood what I was saying.  No wonder you're angry.

 

"Beating the system," as you've described it, is dishonest whether from the point of view of a boss or a worker.  And the higher you go, the more likely such lying is to sabotage your success.

[roddy]

On 5/1/2022 at 6:09 AM, vellocet said:

If you don't have the right keywords in your resume, you'll never make it through the HR system.

Don't know what you do, but I've sent my CV to people who write back double-quick and say "Oh, I see you've... Can you tell me more about that?" 

 

The 'nobody reads it' situation as you describe it may be true for the kind of jobs that have thousands of applicants, but get a bit more specialised or senior (you know, say something where a foreign language ability might be valuable) and human people are paying very close attention .

 

For the purposes of the topic it might be preferable to assume we're talking about "in the best light, but justifiable in a sit-down interview".

 

I might chose the adjective that you feel happy with - fluent, competent, good, whatever - and if language is actually a part of the job drill down and see what is required. You might be a ninja at reading in your specialist field, but in need of significant support if you're expected to conduct telephone interviews with people from other fields.

[Lu]

On 5/2/2022 at 8:00 AM, roddy said:

For the purposes of the topic it might be preferable to assume we're talking about "in the best light, but justifiable in a sit-down interview".

 

I might chose the adjective that you feel happy with - fluent, competent, good, whatever - and if language is actually a part of the job drill down and see what is required. You might be a ninja at reading in your specialist field, but in need of significant support if you're expected to conduct telephone interviews with people from other fields.

I agree with this. 'Fluent' and 'conversational' and whatnot can mean different things to different people, so if your language ability is going to be important to actually do the job, the company/client would be wise to test that, regardless of whether your resume says 'fluent' or 'HSK 6' or 'C1'. And even if they didn't test it, the applicant would be wise to not over-promise too much.

 

For resumes, I'd recommend over-selling a bit, but not to the point of lying of course. From what I know, resumes are usually read with the assumption that the applicant is over-selling a little bit. That means that if I read 'conversational', I would interpret that as 'can talk about hobbies and order food', so in your case I would aim a bit higher. 'Proficient', 'some working proficiency', something along those lines. Native English speakers and more recent resume writers may have better ideas.

[vellocet]

On 5/2/2022 at 3:24 AM, Moshen said:

And the higher you go, the more likely such lying is to sabotage your success.

Ah yeah, I get it.  Everyone in this thread is looking at the situation from on high.  You don't know what it's like down in the trenches, trying to penetrate a faceless HR machine.  Of course you're endorsing this course of action - it's to your benefit and to the detriment of the little guy.  

[roddy]

If you're applying for an 'in the trenches' job, put whatever you need to on the CV. If "Fluent Mandarin" makes you more likely to get the job and you don't think you'll have to prove it, go for it. BUT why tell a lie you don't need to. If Chinese skills are irrelevant to the job, then "Studying Chinese in my spare time" is as good as "Fluent Chinese" for a "Look at me, I'm an interesting well-rounded character" extra-curricular.

 

If Mandarin skills are relevant to the job, a little bit of thought to the wording is wise. There's no point passing the initial filters if you're going to collapse in the interview.

[dakonglong]

To clarify my situation a bit, this is unlikely to be a role where I will use Chinese day-to-day, if at all. The reason I want to include it on my resume is because I want to show: (1) my interest in China and Chinese culture, which I think a Chinese company might appreciate, and (2) demonstrate that I have seriously dedicated myself to a challenging hobby over several years.

 

I am absolutely not interested in lying on or embellishing my resume. In fact, I would prefer to understate my abilities so that I can over-perform if asked to demonstrate them.

 

Thanks you all for the suggestions so far, I appreciate the feedback.

[laoyumi]

In China, when it comes to foreign language proficiency, we normally describe it as "Fluent" "can handle business communication" . And we will post the official test results also if we once participated like TOFEL、CET、英语专八。

Hope this can help.