Correctly speaking, are Chinese 農民 farmers?

[Kenny同志]

Hi folks,

 

What do you think is the correct term for China's 農民? To me, they are not farmers but merely peasants because they own little land, or rather no freehold land at all.

 

I am the kind of person who insists on correct terminology and don't really like the idea of calling a group of people something they are not as it would be so misleading. 

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

[Moshen]

Kenny, Here we are not talking linguistic correctness but political correctness.

In the 1980s, 農民 was rendered in English as "peasants" by everyone, which presumably had to do with concepts of China coming out of centuries (or millennia) of feudalism.  However, within the last decade or two, it seems like Chinese authorities have a different view of China's current relationship to feudalism and therefore 農民 needs to be rendered as "farmers."
Currently, 農民 refers to Chinese people who live in the countryside, not in a city, so maybe a better translation would be "rural residents," but that is clunky.  Even if they don't work the land, they are referred to as 農民 if they live in the countryside.

If I am wrong about any of this, I'm sure someone will correct me!

 

[Kenny同志]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Moshen. Since you mentioned feudalism, linguistically, what are the differences between these two groups of people?

[abcdefg]

On 6/4/2022 at 2:44 AM, Moshen said:

Currently, 農民 refers to Chinese people who live in the countryside, not in a city, so maybe a better translation would be "rural residents," but that is clunky.  Even if they don't work the land, they are referred to as 農民 if they live in the countryside.

 

I agree with @Moshen-- I most often hear it used like this, even by the 农民 themselves. I've had conversations on the bus more than once which bear this out when traveling to remote parts of the province. Conversation sort of like this:

 

"Do you live back in those hills?"

"Yes, in Noname Tiny Village."

"What do you do there"

"农民。“

"What crops do you raise at this time of year."

"None, really, I help people fix their thatched roofs and repair motorbikes." 

 

 

[Moshen]

Quote

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Moshen. Since you mentioned feudalism, linguistically, what are the differences between these two groups of people?

 

In feudalism, the lord - in China, either the emperor or the warlord, I think - owned the land and had power over everyone within their territory. The peasants had to work the land and give part of their harvest to the lord and sustain themselves on the rest. They owned nothing.  This whole perspective comes from Marxism, which Mao adopted as an analysis of people's position in Chinese society.  During the Cultural Revolution, the bourgeois, capitalists and other upper class people were sent to the countryside to "learn from the peasants."

 

As China evolved during the late 1980s and 1990s, the word "peasant" went out of style to (I think) give them more dignity and to reflect the view that China was no longer a feudal society.

 

The word "farmer" is an occupational word with no implications about what kind of economic system they are working in.  Some of my near neighbors where I live in the USA are farmers - they raise cows, sheep or goats for commercial purposes.

[889]

The other problem is that "peasant" can sound demeaning in English. Fine to use it in an historical context, but be very cautious using it to refer to contemporary people, in China or elsewhere.

 

Unless there's a need to stress the agricultural aspect, I'd just use "villagers" to refer to those living in rural areas.

 

[Kenny同志]

Thanks for this discussion, abcdefg, Moshen, and 889. Very informative. Having read what you said, I think I'd be better off avoding the term peasant. ?

[suMMit]

I have a fellow 老外 friend who despite his many great qualities, despises China and the Chinese people. We have had many beer fueled arguments. He almost always refers to all Chinese people as peasants. Sometimes he'll say "Nongs" rhyming it with the English word "thong". So, no, you don't want to go around calling people peasants, it sounds very derogatory.

[roddy]

Rural residents is fine as a neutral term, but as noted it's a bit clunky. If you're talking about something like "China has 56434 gazillion 农民" then I think it's fine, although rural population probably better. Sometimes you can get more specific with context - farmers, villagers, locals.

 

Peasants, as discussed, should be avoided outside of a historical context. 

[Guest realmayo]

Trying to think if there are other Chinese words that have stayed the same in Chinese but are now translated differently. There's 主席 - used to be Chairman, now it's President!

[Moshen]

How about 同志? In the 1980s that was used for work colleagues and was translated as "comrade" but I understand it now means "gay person"?

[roddy]

That's two meanings though, rather than a change in how a single meaning is translated. 

 

Here's a possible candidate. And while I'm no fan of 'ha ha, look at the Chinglish' posts, this long-departed beauty is worth an airing.

[johnk]

Translating 农民 as 'peasant' always annoyed me.

Also 干部 as 'cadre'.

I don't know why but the translations always seem to be stereotypical and wrong.

 

FWIW I have occasionally said to Chinese people

本来我是农场人

Nobody has ever corrected me and they seem to understand that I actually worked on a farm rather than being just a rural resident.

[Moshen]

Quote

Translating 农民 as 'peasant' always annoyed me.

Also 干部 as 'cadre'.

I don't know why but the translations always seem to be stereotypical and wrong.

 

I can assure you that in the 1980s they were both considered absolutely correct.  At that time I worked in a Chinese government unit that kept on top of the approved English renderings of Chinese political expressions. 

 

 

[imron]

On 6/6/2022 at 9:56 PM, Moshen said:

In the 1980s that was used for work colleagues and was translated as "comrade" but I understand it now means "gay person"?

It’s like the word Madam in English - is it a polite way to refer to an older woman, or does it mean the female proprietor of a brothel?

 

The answer is ‘both’ and context will tell you which meaning is which. In mainland China, 同志 is still used all the time in a non-gay context. 

[roddy]

Cadre's fine, we just don't use it in English so much - not because it's wrong, because we don't have the same structures and roles. I'll often substitute official for ease of reading, but if anyone puts cadre back in I don't object. It does grate a little as in English a cadre is more often a group.

[markhavemann]

On 6/7/2022 at 5:30 PM, roddy said:

not because it's wrong, because we don't have the same structures and roles.

Chinese is packed these kinds of words, it's always weird when there is no equivalent at all, like 辅导员 (the teacher in charge of a group of students at university) which I always get asked about but never know how to translate.

 

I feel like where Chinese lacks grammatically, like clear tense and person markers, it's made up for in a big way by an enourmous number of  words for specific things that we just don't have a way to talk about in English (even when we have similar concepts or roles).

[Kenny同志]

Such a lively and informative discussion. Thanks for contributing, everybody. 

 

 

On 6/6/2022 at 6:32 PM, realmayo said:

Trying to think if there are other Chinese words that have stayed the same in Chinese but are now translated differently. There's 主席 -

used to be Chairman, now it's President!

Hmm, does the the word 'president' imply that it is the head of state of a democracy? I always thought those at the very top of the CCP's political hierachy shouldn't be addressed as 'President'. They're 書記 or 主席, but never 總統. 

 

On 6/6/2022 at 7:56 PM, Moshen said:

How about 同志? In the 1980s that was used for work colleagues and was translated as "comrade" but I understand it now means "gay person"?

As some members point out, while the term can be used to mean a gay man, it is still commonly used in its older sense, especially in Party Speak. ?

 

[Guest realmayo]

On 6/8/2022 at 7:09 AM, Kenny同志 said:

Hmm, does the the word 'president' imply that it is the head of state of a democracy?

I'd say there's no democratic implications. But it does sound a bit more 'normal' than Chairman, for the outside word, even if in the Chinese text it's 主席 or 总书记。

I think it's a bit like calling Elizabeth II "Queen" in English, but - if we were for some reason shy about having a hereditary monarch as head of state - translating it as 总统 in Chinese.

 

[Kenny同志]

I see. Thanks for the feedback, Mayo. ?