What does the expression「厚着脸皮」mean?

[黄有光]

The full sentence is 「宋杰厚着脸皮笑一笑」

[TheBigZaboon]

I've always read it as analogous to the English "thick skinned," enduring insults or slights.

"He/she laughed thick-skinnedly..." Laughed in spite of the implied insult. Awkward, I admit, but...

 

But I'm more often wrong than not...

 

TBZ

[Moshen]

It made me think of the title of this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Thick-Face-Black-Heart-Philosophy/dp/0446670200

If I had to guess, I would guess that "thick face" implies not letting an adversary know what one is thinking and not taking offense.

[889]

I'd use it for someone who shamelessly takes advantage of a situation: he doesn't care what you think of him.

 

And it's not a nice thing to be. You can call a friend "thick-skinned" in English without much offense but don't tell him he's 厚着脸皮, even if he is.

[TheBigZaboon]

I bow to superior numbers and more relevant experience...

 

And the two examples, including the book title dovetail neatly...

 

So instead of "in spite of the implied insult," maybe "and planned his revenge..."

[Insectosaurus]

Both the Longman and the KEY dictionary do have an entry for 厚着脸皮:

 

LMA:
〈俗〉指不知羞恥﹐不顧面子。

 

KEY:
have the nerve/audacity/cheek to, unashamedly; summon up the nerve/courage to

There are also some bilingual example sentences:

 

厚著臉皮說 [have the nerve to say] Source: PLC and Oxford

他竟厚著臉皮向我要錢。[He had the nerve to ask me for money.] Source: Oxford

[Moshen]

I guess this is obvious, but maybe worth saying all the same:  all the definitions relate to the Chinese concept of "face" - needing to save face, giving the other person face, not having enough face, etc.  If you have "thick face" then you don't have what the Chinese consider to be the right amount of face, both with respect to yourself and to others.  You have too little face.  Or interpreting the metaphor a little differently, you have so much face that it gets in the way of normative relationships.

[pinion]

Seconding @Moshen that it's related to the overall concept of face. The counterpart to 厚臉皮 is 臉皮薄, easily embarrassed/really doesn't like to be shown up.

 

That said, I'd say 厚(著)臉皮 isn't necessarily negative, especially when it's situational/being used as a verb like this. It just means brazening it out in a situation which might cause one to feel awkward or embarrassed. (In general I think face as a concept isn't as unique to Chinese culture as it's often made out to be--it's just more visible because Chinese uses a single unified metaphor for it.)

[Moshen]

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face as a concept isn't as unique to Chinese culture as it's often made out to be

 

I agree it's not unique to China.  However, the extent to which people go to save face for themselves, for others in China and perhaps other Asian countries is quite extreme compared to the West.  At least that is what struck me during the year I spent working in China.

 

 

[黄有光]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:20 PM, Moshen said:

However, the extent to which people go to save face for themselves, for others in China and perhaps other Asian countries is quite extreme compared to the West.  At least that is what struck me during the year I spent working in China.

Please do tell us in detail about your experiences. I also lived in China but was unfortunately in an "English bubble" and so wasn't properly enmeshed in or interacting with Chinese culture.

 

What are some examples of the things you saw?

[Moshen]

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What are some examples of the things you saw?

 

Constant lies on an institutional level about small things regarding foreigners in order to save face.

 

For example: At my office - I worked for Foreign Languages Press in Beijing - before Spring Festival, the woman in charge of the foreign experts in our unit (who denied she was in charge of us) had a sheet on which she was keeping track of who had invited which of the foreign experts was invited to whose home for what Spring Festival meal.  When I happened to see this I was crestfallen, because I had received an invitation from a Chinese colleague who I'd liked, an invitation that had pleased me because I thought it reflected her liking me as well.  In a sense it did reflect that, but it also reflected a kind of orchestration that was officially denied "because we (the office) would lose face if some of the foreigners received no invitations and others received several."  (So said one of the younger people in the office who would clue me in on things when no one else was around.)  In addition, each family that hosted one of the foreigners received a subsidy for the food for the occasion - a fact which was also officially denied.

 

Another example: Whenever I traveled with a translator on a work assignment, I was not allowed to eat meals with the translator and with the officials who were hosting us locally.  I could neither eat with them nor invite them to eat with me.  There were some (flimsy) practical reasons behind this, but it was justified to me as a matter of "face."  My translator, a spunky young woman, hated this as much as I did, but we were powerless against the system.

 

Such incidents, a relic of previously severe controls between Chinese and foreigners, were compounded in my mind by the lying about them to the extent that they poisoned my enjoyment of China.

 

You might think that this was just a product of the era (1980s), but when I visited China again as a tourist in 2014 and 2019 I experienced some similar things.  For example, when a hotel took our passports to make copies of them in the back room, and in one case to call in Public Security to follow us around, they denied that that was what was going on.  In their minds, China would lose face if we understood what they were actually doing.

[Insectosaurus]

@Moshen I think similar encounters would be likely in DDR or the DRC, but not in Japan or Taiwan. The political system is the main factor here, I would argue. You would never encounter such a situation in South Korea, while you wouldn't be able to avoid it in its neighbor up north.

[Moshen]

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The political system is the main factor here, I would argue.

 

To a certain extent I agree with you.  However, the main point for this topic is that if pressed, people would bring up "face" as the reason why these things could not be admitted.   Not simply "well, those are the rules" or "that's the system" but "it's important to save face here."

 

If you think about it, isn't China's current adherence to zero-Covid, despite its rather obvious drawbacks, partly a matter of "face"?

 

 

[Insectosaurus]

On 7/16/2022 at 10:15 AM, Moshen said:

If you think about it, isn't China's current adherence to zero-Covid, despite its rather obvious drawbacks, partly a matter of "face"?

 

I would argue that if we use high politics as examples for saving face, we can find the exact same situation with the Ukraine war and Putin (several outcomes will make him "lose face" and are therefore a big issue for the regime) and several other arenas. To me, the saving face culture has always been brought up in smaller social contexts. Let's however agree to disagree, since its not the main topic of this thread.

[黄有光]

On 7/16/2022 at 11:02 AM, Insectosaurus said:

since its not the main topic of this thread.

Oh by all means, this is all very interesting to me and my original question has largely been answered. I am far from minding the change in conversation.

 

On 7/16/2022 at 9:37 AM, Moshen said:

For example, when a hotel took our passports to make copies of them in the back room, and in one case to call in Public Security to follow us around, they denied that that was what was going on.  In their minds, China would lose face if we understood what they were actually doing.

Oof, yeah I agree that sounds totally obnoxious. 

 

Has anyone had direct experience living in Taiwan? Curious if face is indeed not as big a concern there.

[Insectosaurus]

On 7/16/2022 at 12:26 PM, 黄有光 said:

Curious if face is indeed not as big a concern there.

 

Note that I was referring to the kind of situations that was mentioned above. "Face" in a broad sense is of course present in both Taiwan and Japan, and to some extent (though not nearly as much as a few decades ago) here in Sweden as well.