Pronouncing 'r'

[Mike]

I'm confused about how to pronounce 'r'. My Chinese book tells me to pronounce r like r in road, but with the tongue loosely rolled in the middle of the mouth. This sounds about right for 认 (ren4) - Using this link, but when I listen to a CD of 认识 - (ren4 shi) the r sounds more like the g in garage - or perhaps the G in the French name Gérard. Any idea what's going on here?

[atitarev]

Wait for the native speakers but you're right, it's pronounced like French J, not like English R but there's something in between English R and French J.

很热 hěn rè

In the final position R is pronounced more like English R.

玩儿 wánr 一点儿 yīdiǎnr (pronounced yīdiǎr)

R was chosen in pinyin to represent the sound but you should be guided by the Chinese pronunciation rules not by equivalent letters in English. Listening to recordings or listening to the native speakers is the best way to get your sounds right.

BTW, Russian transliteration is different from pinyin and in my opinion, closer to original pronunciation and in many cases has less letters. E.g. 人民日报 Rénmín Rìbào is transliterated as Жэньминь Жибао. ж is the letter pronounced as French J (as in Jacques). When Russian Chinese learners start using pinyin they always wonder why Ж is R.

[Altair]

The exact nature of both the initial Mandarin "r" and the initial English "r" continue to puzzle me, but I think I can shed a little light as well.

The English "r" that is pronounced at the beginning of a word cannot have friction between the tongue and the top of the mouth. The Mandarin "r," however, usually has light friction. It is this light friction that makes it sound like the "G" of "Gérard" or the "s" of "pleasure." By the way, the Mandarin "h" also tends to have light friction, making it sound a little like American Spanish "j" of "Jose" or a light equivalent of the German "ch" of "Bach" or the initial sound in the Russian word for "want" (which I do not know how to type.)

For the "G" of "Gérard" or the "s" of "pleasure, the friction is a major feature of the sound; whereas it is a minor or even optional feature of the Mandarin "r." For the Mandarin "r," a major feature is that the tip of the tongue has to curl up and back. It is this retroflex action of the tongue that makes it sound like the English "r," which also has a little retroflection.

To make a good Mandarin "r" (from the point of view of English pronunciation), curl the tip of your tongue even more than for the English "r" and add light friction that makes it sound a little like "the "G" of "Gérard" or the "s" of "pleasure. Remember, however, that it is the retroflection (i.e., the tongue curling up and backward) that gives the distinctive sound, not the friction.

Another more subtle issue is that initial "r" in most English dialects has simultaneous lip rounding, which is inappropriate for Chinese. The accent normally attributed to Elizabethan pirates also does not have this lip rounding. This might also be true of some modern Irish-accented English, but I am not sure if I am remembering this correctly. The lack of lip rounding applies to other retroflex Chinese sounds, as well.

I also think the combined issue of lip rounding and "tongue curling" is why speakers of some languages hear the Chinese "r" as a fricative like French "j" or Russian "Ж," but others hear it more as an English "r."

The final Mandarin "r" also has tongue curling, but I do not think it ever has any friction.

[Song You Shen]

my Chinese teacher always taught us that the 'r' sounds like the second half of "pleasure" -- the "-sure" sound.... not to be confused with the word "sure". Just say the word "pleasure" without the "plea-" part and you'll know what I'm talking about. Obviously this only works for words startings with 'r' like ren, renshi, etc. and not for words that use 儿.

Youshen

[nipponman]

How does the final r sound? sounds like an english r to me. "er2" sounds like "are".

[kudra]

my Chinese teacher always taught us that the 'r' sounds like the second half of "pleasure" ...

I second that. I learned it as the "s" in pleasure. I think this is the explanation given in

INTRODUCTION TO CHINESE PRONUNCIATION AND THE PINYIN ROMANIZATION

Hugh M. Stimson

Introduces the sounds of standard Mandarin to the beginning student.

ISBN 0-88710-034-1

also a good point by atitarev

...you should be guided by the Chinese pronunciation rules not by equivalent letters in English...

This is also exactly right. This is one reason some people advocate bopomofo -- there is no way you can accidently use an English pronunciation. I wouldn't go to that extreme however.

My attitude was that the pinyin romanization had it's own very specific rules. Some of the time they agree with English, and some of the time they don't. Just assume they don't and get on with trying to make the sounds on the tapes or mp3's or whatever you have as a guide. When I was learning pinyin, I took the attitude that I was learning a language with about equal overlap with English as Martian might have. Mentally this allowed me to wipe the slate clean of preconcieved attitudes about the sounds that pinyin encodes.

It sounds very promising that you could hear that you needed to double check the r sound.

Can you tell us the book you are using that say's it's like the r in road?

[MarkKang]

I think the R is the most difficult sound for native English speakers to get right. It took me the longest anyways.

I seem to remember even Da Shan, when he first started appearing on TV, didn't have it quite right. Then, I noticed a few years later that he seemed to have jiuzhengle wenti.

Altair- you have a good explanation in my view, although I wouldn't describe it as the tongue "curling" up. It is more of the tongue cupping slightly, with the tip of the tongue being placed at the roof of the mouth just behind the teeth. The tongue stays in position for the whole sound, only moving if a proceeding vowel requires it. The sound starts from the throat as the English R, but simultaniously has the aspiration between the tip of the tongue and the roof of the mouth.

I agree that the SURE in pleasure is the same sound initially, but then without the tongue moving.

To get this sound right took me a period of a few months. So don't give up if you can't get it right away.

[ala]

second that. I learned it as the "s" in pleasure. I think this is the explanation given in

INTRODUCTION TO CHINESE PRONUNCIATION AND THE PINYIN ROMANIZATION

Hugh M. Stimson

Introduces the sounds of standard Mandarin to the beginning student.

ISBN 0-88710-034-1

People who pronounce the Mandarin Pinyin "r" with just a English pleasure [Z] or French je [Z] will have a very noticeable accent.

For example, French je sounds REALLY different from Mandarin re (热).

[kudra]

re ala's remarks,

For beginning English speakers, I would take the s in pleasure as the starting point for the pinyin r, to get away from preconceived ideas about typical English r sounds.

I agree it is not enough to stop there, this would just be the starting point to get the mouth working in the right general direction. Presumably the pronunciation would get refined with practice based on recordings of or "face time" with native speakers.

[Shadowdh]

DOH...!!! Just when I thought I was getting it all this pops up... My chinese teacher tells us to pull the tongue back with light contact to the roof of the mouth and pronounce it like its a mix between y and r... oh well... more practice for me...

Also does regional pronounciation have influence on this conundrum...???

[carlo]

Can you guys say /shi/ as in 时间? Can you hear the difference between English sh in shame and Mandarin sh in 时间? The tongue position for Mandarin sh is the same as in Mandarin r, so a good first approximation of Mandarin r is a voiced version of Mandarin sh. Try saying 社 and 热.

Cantonese doesn't have Mandarin sh but has something closer to English sh, for example, so there is often a noticeable difference in the way some dialect speakers pronounce Mandarin r.

[MarkKang]

People who pronounce the Mandarin Pinyin "r" with just a English pleasure [Z] or French je [Z] will have a very noticeable accent.

I think the tongue position is the same, which is the hard part for most people. Then it's just a matter of how you aspirate it. The Z in pleasure is yes, more of a Z sound, then the Chinese R.

[ala]

I think the tongue position is the same, which is the hard part for most people. Then it's just a matter of how you aspirate it. The Z in pleasure is yes, more of a Z sound, then the Chinese R.

what do you mean by aspiration?

many mandarin dialects pronounce the r [z] as a sonorant [l], not the fricative.

most native speakers will certainly not think that the Mandarin r is very similar to the French j [Z]. Tongue position aren't really that similar either; the Mandarin r [z] is not postalveolar [Z].

Personally, I think it's a mistake to instruct beginners that the Mandarin r is like English s in pleasure or French j. With the exception of "ri" 日, the Mandarin r is quite similar to the English r (the English r is very unique too) for native speakers of Chinese.

[MarkKang]

Phonology is not my specialty, but as far as I understand it, "aspirate" means to expel air. That's what I meant.

The Chinese R is nowhere near the English R. In the English R, the tongue is far away from the roof of the mouth. This is the mistake most Americans make. It is a postalveolar as far as I understand the term. As far as comparing it to French, I'm in the dark.

I don't know which Mandarin dialects pronounce the R as a sonorant, but in standard Putonghua, it is a voiced fricative. Actually, Mandarin means standard Chinese as far as I know, so any dialects would have to be described by their region, such as Beijinghua, or Henanhua.

My Putonghua pronunciation is indistinguishable from a native's. My description of the tongue placement for the Chinese R above is the best I can do in laymen's terms. When I make the S sound in pleasure, my tongue is in the same position as when I make the R sound in Chinese. There is more of a vibration of at the tip of the tongue in the S of pleasure, where as the R sound in Putonghua comes more completely from the throat. I think the sound in the throat can be said to be the same as the English R though, but that's the only similarity.

I detailed phonological description of the Putonghua R would be interesting to read; I don't have one in any of my textbooks.

[carlo]

An approximant is more 'open' than a fricative, i.e. there's more room for air to flow.

I think Mandarin /r/ is an apical retroflex with no palatalization, ie when the tip of the tongue contacts the roof of the mouth, the body of the tongue always stays low. English /S/ in pleasure is a palatoalveolar, and while the point of contact of the tongue is (more or less) the same as in Mandarin, the *shape* of the tongue is completely different: the body is raised.

[ala]

An approximant is more 'open' than a fricative' date=' i.e. there's more room for air to flow.

I think Mandarin /r/ is an apical retroflex with no palatalization, ie when the tip of the tongue contacts the roof of the mouth, the body of the tongue always stays low. English /S/ in pleasure is a palatoalveolar, and while the point of contact of the tongue is (more or less) the same as in Mandarin, the *shape* of the tongue is completely different: the body is raised.[/quote']

yes!

.

.

[MarkKang]

Yep, that't right on. Raising the body of the tongue for the S gives it more of a vibration. Or should I say it allows for more of a vibration?

I read some phonology Wikipidea, rather confusing.

[Mai Kairong]

That sound written as r in pinyin is the bane of my existence. How do I make it??

[roddy]

Merged with an old topic from a few years back - should be helpful. Best thing might be to just record yourself trying to say a few 'r' words and then maybe we can figure out what you're doing right / wrong. You can attach audio files using the 'manage attachment' buttons when you're making a new post.

[Hofmann]

It can be ɻ or ʐ. Initials