Pronunciation/Accent coaching by a proffessional - anyone tried this and has tips?

[malazann]

So I figure the ROI on getting a pronunciation coach could be worth it. I can pull a random number out of thin air like 1 hour coaching = 10 hours of private study. 

 

But the direction and advice of a specialist could be invaluable, and 1-2 lessons a month to find areas of improvement and focussing on them is the strategy I am considering going for. So I wanna ask firstly if anyone has anyone they can refer me to, I found one on iTalki and did a 30 min session months ago and thought it was decent and reasonably priced. But it was only 30 minutes and she basically compiled all the errors I made when reading out the character dialogue in a tv show scene

 

But this time I'd go back with a plan. 
1. monthly sessions
2. pick out 1-2 most impactful errors and work on them

3. evaluate improvements on next lesson and go from there

 

 

[Moshen]

I'm just curious what you mean when you say "specialist."  In the US, that would mean someone with at least a master's degree in Speech and who had professional experience with accent reduction.  (I actually have two friends who fit that specification - for English.)  So I am surprised you would find a specialist on iTalki.  I wouldn't call an ordinary teacher, even one with a lot of years of teaching experience, a specialist. 

 

A teacher can certainly identify and describe errors, but I am not sure they have the ability to coach you to correct the errors, especially if the errors have to do with sounds you are making incorrectly. 

[jaapgrolleman]

I think it's worth it yeah.

 

I'm learning Mandarin at a school (GoEast) and I've had several teachers by now. Of course the teacher will focus on many parts and at a beginner level, the 100% correct pronunciation isn't that important, you cannot stop at every word. But now I'm upper intermediate so this year I've been asking my current teacher to focus more on my pronunciation. It works really well, I have a problem with the fourth tone, but also the Q (like 气) vs a Ti (like 体), and also the CH or ZH in 场 or 张 I need to pronounce better. She'll notice me of that. 

[markhavemann]

One difficulty with finding an online teacher for this is finding appropriate exercises that specifically target your particular problem to correct whatever errors they help you to find. I think most teachers on iTalki just wouldn't be able to help you with that.

 

Imagine a Chinese person learning English can't differentiate the sounds L and N (they say "Lo" and "No" interchangeably and cant hear the difference). Pointing this out to them is definitely kind of helpful, but simply letting them go back and "work on it" probably won't do much, since they can't even hear their own mistakes. You need particular exercises in a particular order to help them notice the differences and then slowly help them to produce the different sounds.

[TheBigZaboon]

My opinion is that you're all talking about a dialogue coach. Think Hollywood... Think Mel Gibson playing Americans and Russell Crowe playing British sea captains... 

 

Because of the wide variety of accents you find among Chinese speaking standard Putonghua, there's no way this profession doesn't exist in China's entertainment industry. Whether or not you can find one, and then afford him or her, is another question. 

 

A speech therapist is obviously another possibility, but the same caveats apply...

 

Sorry if I'm spoiling the party, again...

 

TBZ

[Guest realmayo]

Because newsreaders etc are required to have very standard 普通话, there are tests - and therefore trainers - for pronunciation. I guess they fit somewhere between a dialogue coach and a language teacher. @roddy reported good results with one in Bejing years ago I think. But they would be unlikely to be found on italki because they are not  Chinese-as-a-foreign-language teachers.

[roddy]

Yeah, though it was Dalian - sweet older lady who trained village girls to get through the 普通话水平测试 so they could teach kindergarten. She was incredible, knew more about where my tongue was at any given point than I did. Was funny too, I basically went in saying "my tones need work" and she said something along the lines of "Your tones are among the things that need work."

 

Anyway, if you search the regular tutoring sites for various 普通话水平测试 keywords - I don't know what the standard English translation or abbreviation are, but you can find them - then you'll likely turn up tutors. If not, they'll be findable on the Chinese internet.

[Dawei3]

On 9/28/2022 at 7:10 PM, Moshen said:

A teacher can certainly identify and describe errors, but I am not sure they have the ability to coach you to correct the errors, especially if the errors have to do with sounds you are making incorrectly. 

I agree with Moshen,.  A teacher is different than an accent reduction coach.  An accent coach is more likely to know less obvious errors (but still important).  I heard a PhD speech pathologist talk about accents in English; she was fascinating in regards the origins of accents in various non-native English speakers.    

 

For example, how many English teachers will know when to say "the" and when to say "thee."  Before this was pointed out to me (an American native English speaker), I wrongly assumed we just say "the" and just said "thee" under special situations.   Or to know to tell speakers to pronounce warmth with a "p."  

[zhouhaochen]

Wouldnt a "Pronounciation Coach" basically be an experienced Chinese language teacher whom you ask to focus on tones? To me it sounds like the same person.

 

One part about tones and pronounciation that comes up in our teacher meetings regularly is that what students say they want is usually not what they actually want. Many students say, correct my tones or pronounciation whenever I make a mistake. We tried - the result is usually the student giving up studying Mandarin. For most students if you insist on correct pronounciation, in a two hour session they will effectively make it through three sentences. Its highly frustrating and demotivating.

So for a good teacher, it is a balance of focusing on tones and let the student get away with mistakes because otherwise they loose motivation and never get to learn anything else.

For higher level students it can be different, but not necessarily. To have someone who can speak pretty decent Mandarin and now tell him every second word that he is wrong can kill motivation very fast.

Not saying that is not worth it (of course it is, tones and pronounciation are essential), but be careful what you wish for.

[Flickserve]

On 9/30/2022 at 2:03 PM, zhouhaochen said:

One part about tones and pronounciation that comes up in our teacher meetings regularly is that what students say they want is usually not what they actually want. Many students say, correct my tones or pronounciation whenever I make a mistake. We tried - the result is usually the student giving up studying Mandarin. For most students if you insist on correct pronounciation, in a two hour session they will effectively make it through three sentences. It’s highly frustrating and demotivating.

I agree with you. To be honest, I think the teacher should also share their experiences on having taught other students on the result of being absolutely strict with tones for a hour. The teacher has met many students but the student probably has far less experience of language learning. 
 

With the knowledge of how crushing it can be for a student to be continually corrected, the teacher should also try to manage the expectations and be prepared to use different methods to help the student rather than take the student too literally. Here we start getting into what makes a good teacher.
 

Can the teacher explain an hour of continual correction of tones is very tiring and demoralising?

 

Can the teacher take the initiative to explain correction of pronunciation and tones in any language means far fewer sentences covered and that there are trade offs? 

Can the teacher explain that the process is a very tiring and a lot of grinding and persistence? Encourage the student to speak up if they become mentally tired.

 

I suggest the teacher should state clearly at the beginning of a pronunciation lesson that the lesson is not about covering more volume of new sentences or words but still emphasising the work is still moving towards more effective communication. Yes, state the obvious.

 

 

 

[Moshen]

Quote

Wouldnt a "Pronounciation Coach" basically be an experienced Chinese language teacher whom you ask to focus on tones?

 

No.  Pronunciation encompasses many more things than tones.  In English, I've contended on the phone with support people located in India who are saying some English consonants so wrongly that I cannot understand them.  I assume that that happens in Chinese too, even though we English speakers can't hear it.  A teacher who can correct tones is going only part of the way toward excellent pronunciation - though maybe that's just what malazann is looking for.  I suspect not because he/she also used the word "accent."

[Jan Finster]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:58 AM, malazann said:

But the direction and advice of a specialist could be invaluable, and 1-2 lessons a month to find areas of improvement and focussing on them is the strategy I am considering going for.

 

Unless you are at a very high level and normal Chinese teachers can no longer help you, I would not bother. If you are "HSK-4ish" (as your avatar says) it would an utter waste of money in my opinion. As you become more familiar with the language your pronunication will likely improve gradually. If you are absolutely brilliant and you want to perform on stage, yes, it might help (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL-MriW6Bjw&ab_channel=SeeChinaOrg).

 

What I would do, however, would be to record myself and send the recording to the coach and let him/her point out the mistakes.

[roddy]

> Unless you are at a very high level and normal Chinese teachers can no longer help you, I would not bother. 

I'd disagree. Do some* high quality pronunciation work from that start and you'll save a lot of headaches later. You'll also enjoy learning Chinese more as you'll be understood first time and more easily. This is something a lot of Chinese teachers fail to do as a) it's hard to teach and b) there's still a 'good enough for a foreigner' attitude.

 

*As in, 5 minutes of every hour, on average, or something. There's no point in insisting on perfection in the first week - but ideally you want to insist on getting slightly closer to perfect EVERY week. 

[Jim]

One friend studied with a cross-talk master quite early in his language learning journey, meant he seemed quite affected for a while but really nailed it and obviously sounded less try-hard the better his general language got. Worked very well in his case.

[Jan Finster]

On 9/30/2022 at 3:03 PM, roddy said:

> Unless you are at a very high level and normal Chinese teachers can no longer help you, I would not bother. 

I'd disagree. Do some* high quality pronunciation work from that start and you'll save a lot of headaches later. You'll also enjoy learning Chinese more as you'll be understood first time and more easily. This is something a lot of Chinese teachers fail to do as a) it's hard to teach and b) there's still a 'good enough for a foreigner' attitude.

 

*As in, 5 minutes of every hour, on average, or something. There's no point in insisting on perfection in the first week - but ideally you want to insist on getting slightly closer to perfect EVERY week. 

 

Just for the record, I do think you should have a teacher, who pays attention to your pronunciation early on. Any teacher with a degree in teaching Chinese should (be able to) do so. I do however doubt that hiring a dedicated pronunciation specialist is useful in the early stages. That would be a bit like hiring an iron man cycling coach for your 4 year old son, who just learnt to keep his balance on a bicycle. It probably "would not hurt", but if your budget and time is limited, I doubt it is a good ROI. 

[abcdefg]

On 9/30/2022 at 1:03 AM, zhouhaochen said:

For most students if you insist on correct pronounciation, in a two hour session they will effectively make it through three sentences. Its highly frustrating and demotivating.

 

Excellent observation. I had that experience once and it was very difficult. The teacher was someone I already knew who agreed to tutor me early on. She was a native speaker of Chinese who worked as an English teacher. I had asked her to focus on my speaking deficiencies, and she did it so strictly that I could never get an entire sentence out. We had to restructure our program and include a little more slack. I asked her to focus on glaring mistakes and ones I made over and over. That worked much better.  

[Flickserve]

On 9/30/2022 at 11:00 PM, Jan Finster said:

I do however doubt that hiring a dedicated pronunciation specialist is useful in the early stages. That would be a bit like hiring an iron man cycling coach for your 4 year old son, who just learnt to keep his balance on a bicycle.

I did a beginners online course with an online school. The syllabus was orientated to those coming to Beijing. I think it was useful but I quickly realised after 30 basic lessons that my mandarin pronunciation was really quite poor.

 

It was around the same time I came across Roddy’s advice for early learning of pronunciation. Having had some experience of Cantonese and seeing other adult learners have problems with pronunciation there, then I decided to just concentrate on pinyin and pronunciation. It’s not easy to just do pronunciation and focusing on it was much easier when I allocated time for that rather than trying to incorporate it with learning different sentences, vocabulary and grammar on top. 
 

In summary, I think it was well worth spending that extra time on very focussed practice early on. You don’t have to worry so much about it when you start getting to hsk 3/4 and more complex sentence patterns.

 

It would be quite disheartening to think you spent so much time getting to hsk four and then finding out your pronunciation is so far away from what people can understand , you have to go back to and unlearn your pronunciation and learn it again. 
 

The analogy to a four year old is wrong. That example doesn’t apply to pronunciation. Language is different to skills.

[Guest realmayo]

On 10/1/2022 at 6:12 AM, Flickserve said:

It would be quite disheartening

I never expected to be in for the long-haul, so my first two years in China I didn't really study Chinese at all, just picked up enough to chat a bit with friends or taxi drivers. When I did end up studying I was astonished to find out that, for instance, there are two kinds of 'u' in pinyin! Many years later I still needed a month's worth of one-on-one classes just focussed on pronunciation, swallowing my pride and working through the pinyin table sound by sound. It was necessary, although I was sad to lose most of my local accent. I still don't usually bother much with zh/ch/sh though.

 

But I will add one thing: although people here are discussing intensive work on pronunciation, don't underestimate the 'extensive' side: I later made another big step forward just by lots of conversation, 2, 3, 4 hours a day, with speakers of standard Chinese (who are a lot easier to find these days), as well as lots of listening to Chinese (listening comprehensions, textbook audio, chat shows) when I was alone.

 

So I think that means that enough exposure to and use of Chinese will automatically improve your pronunciation, except that you probably need (a) extra 'intensive' work on the most difficult areas, and (b) a conversation partner who will spot those areas for your and warn you if you are developing new problems. As Flickserve says, the earlier you have this the better (although the downside: you will sound just like every other foreigner with really good Chinese!).

[malazann]

Thanks for the responses everyone! I will have to sit on this and think it over.

To respond to the idea that any professional mandarin teacher should be suitable, as Roddy said about his former teacher, a specialist won't just be able to tell me I am "wrong". A specialist should be able to identify the underlying issues in terms of mouth placement, tone combinations and excercises to focus on those areas. 

I am trying to just be "100%" understandable right now, even if my pronunciation is awful. Reading random short sentences out of context is probably a decent pratice excercise (although teachers are more exposed to poor pronunciation from L2s)
 

[Jan Finster]

On 10/6/2022 at 11:07 AM, malazann said:

the idea that any professional mandarin teacher should be suitable, as Roddy said about his former teacher, a specialist won't just be able to tell me I am "wrong". A specialist should be able to identify the underlying issues in terms of mouth placement, tone combinations and excercises to focus on those areas. 

 

Maybe I was very lucky with the only teacher I ever had. A trained Chinese teacher should be able to tell you how to produce the correct sounds (incl. tongue position, etc) and not just tell you you are wrong. Of course there are different levels of competence among those that can.

Have you had proper Chinese teachers (with a university degree in teaching Chinese) or "only" community teachers on Italki?