Challenge: Can I reach 500 hours of speaking Chinese on YouTube?

[becky82]

I finally did it!  I recorded myself speaking Chinese: Youtube playlist.  I've been meaning to do this for a long time, but... y'know, it's hard building up the confidence.

 

I'm semi-seriously setting a goal of 500 hours of speaking practice (I'm currently at ~31 hours), which I expect will take at least 4+ months (I can't speak much more than 4 hours per day).  The purpose of this goal is not to "bust a gut", but as a target to strive towards, and even if I don't make it, it'd still be a pretty good achievement.  I'm not aware of anyone who has done a similarly large number of hours, and I like such unique goals.  I find it hard to believe my oral Chinese won't improve after 500 hours practice.

 

To save time, I don't edit my videos---it's just me speaking, and I leave the mistakes as is (there's a lot more mistakes in my earlier videos).  Perhaps one day I'll make more serious YouTube videos, but the advice I saw was simply to "get started" (and build from there), so I did.  I'm not expecting many people to watch these videos; in fact, I'm surprised anyone does (but it is encouraging when they do!).  I'm just hoping to significantly improve my oral Chinese along the way.

 

One problem I encounter is... what do I even talk about?  I mostly just read the news and browse webpages, and show whatever apps/websites I use for studying.  Sometimes I answer random questions from here.  Let me know if you have any suggestions for things I can talk about for hours.

[Moshen]

Hi Becky,  I get that you're excited about this, but there's a lot about it that I don't understand.  You're setting yourself a goal to speak totally by yourself for 500 hours?  How will this automatically lead to improvement?

 

Wouldn't some of that time be better spent in conversation?  And some of that with someone who can tell you where you need to improve?

 

And what is the benefit to you of putting all this practice onto Youtube?

 

I don't mean to be throwing cold water on your excitement, it's just that this project has me baffled, and I'm wondering what your assumptions about learning are underlying it.

[malazann]

I think this project definitely beneficial and one-way conversations are an under-rated way of improving your language and getting a better understanding of your limitations (i.e what you are struggling to express). Its also about learning things of direct interest to yourself. I find myself talking to myself in chinese and trying to express my thoughts in chinese sometimes, and its a great insight into my language capability and pushes me to find creative ways to verbalise what I am thinking.

 

Uploading to youtube provides a certain atmosphere or environment to help Becky keep focus, because after 10 mins of talking without a camera/mic, you will get distracted and stop.

 

I have to say though that I think there is some merit to script writing, editing and the whole proces of trying to make semi-polished videos though. It would push you to minimise mistakes and do retakes as you catch your own mistakes. As you get better, you can be less prescriptive with your script and just have a brief outline, but this is obviously a much bigger time committment

But I applaud your dedication and 31 hours is already a milestone!

[becky82]

On 10/20/2022 at 7:17 AM, Moshen said:

Hi Becky,  I get that you're excited about this, but there's a lot about it that I don't understand.  You're setting yourself a goal to speak totally by yourself for 500 hours?  How will this automatically lead to improvement?

 

Practice.  口语 is my weak spot at the moment (I'm basically C1+ in other aspects, but B2 in speaking), and I hope to develop fluency through practice.  I have trouble constructing sentences on the fly and talking about topics that are of interest to me (science!).  If you compare my first videos with my later videos, there's a clear difference in my level of comfort---it's already leading to improvement.

 

On 10/20/2022 at 7:17 AM, Moshen said:

Wouldn't some of that time be better spent in conversation?

 

This 500 hours of 口语 practice is in addition to other aspects of study (reaching a high level requires thousands of hours of practice).  Also, people are not going to simply speak Chinese with me for the hundreds of hours practice I need (my 口语 is not good enough for it to be a pleasurable conversion).  They're likely going to require payment, or for me to teach them English in return, and even then I can only talk about topics that interest them.

 

On 10/20/2022 at 7:17 AM, Moshen said:

And some of that with someone who can tell you where you need to improve?

 

I can do that myself for free by analyzing my videos.

 

On 10/20/2022 at 7:17 AM, Moshen said:

And what is the benefit to you of putting all this practice onto Youtube?

 

Fun.  To share the experience with others (friends and family).  To be able to see my progress.  To have an achievement ("I did that!").  Because this site can easily tell me how many hours I've done.  To have experience letting people see me speak Chinese (I might want to give lectures in Chinese one day) so I'm less timid in the future.  So I don't have to store large video files on my computer.  To have experience making YouTube videos (I may gradually increase the quality, and build to something better).  Also for reasons which I haven't thought of today.

 

Actually, the other thing is: I want to show others how it takes a lot of time and effort to improve.

 

----

 

  

On 10/20/2022 at 7:55 AM, malazann said:

I have to say though that I think there is some merit to script writing, editing and the whole proces of trying to make semi-polished videos though. It would push you to minimise mistakes and do retakes as you catch your own mistakes. As you get better, you can be less prescriptive with your script and just have a brief outline, but this is obviously a much bigger time committment

 

That's what I'm thinking about down the line; we'll see how it evolves, I guess.  One thing I want to avoid is over-editing or over-rehearsing videos to the point where I'm deceiving myself.  The other issue is that I don't want to splurge on hardware (lighting, camera stands, green screens, etc.).  There's not much point in having high-quality content using low-quality hardware.

[phills]

Wow!  That's very ambitious.  I'm way too self conscious to record myself on youtube, but I might record myself privately for a couple hundred hours next year as a project to improve my speaking too.

 

I'm a big fan of the theory that pure hours / practice / data is key to language.  I tried learning languages as a kid and I was uniformly terrible at every language I tried, and I'm convinced it's because I just didn't put in the time.  You can't out-smart language learning.

 

For me practice is easiest when it becomes mindless -- a habit.  So, to me, in depth practice is the easiest form of practice.  Easier, and therefore better, than "practicing what you want to do." 

 

Every time I find myself sampling around (and therefore it becoming no longer mindless), I know it's that I got bored and am about to break my practice routine.  

 

Listening for 30 hours to a book I've become used to, is much easier than listening to 300 different 5 minute youtube clips.  When practice becomes something I have to pay attention to, I know I'm going to stop pretty soon.  It's the same with physical exercise / working out.

 

As for what to record yourself saying, that's an interesting question.  If I were to do it (privately), I'd probably start by downloading some play/movie scripts and reading them, like an actor.  Or maybe a book that reads like a diary.  Maybe famous speeches?

 

If you were doing it on youtube, then probably do a podcast of something you're interested in.  Maybe you can finagle a friend to do it with.  E.g. I was just searching for a podcast talking about House of the Dragon show in Chinese, and found only one (of mediocre quality).  But one exists.

[sanchuan]

Impressive undertaking! Even if you don't get to the arbitrary target of 500 hours, this is bound to be good practice. Both self-talk and reading out loud on the regular work wonders for improving speaking in my experience. 

 

But there's also an experimental side to this project that really intrigues me. Aside from giving you structure, regularity and all the other benefits mentioned above, making YouTube videos will also force you to face what your brain is bound to perceive as a captive audience, however imaginary, for very long stretches of time! That's got to keep you on your toes, and is in itself quite a different experience to everyday self-talk or even to the chummy turn-taking that happens in conversation. 

 

We know there's merit to this approach. Performing has helped the likes of 大山, 大牛 and countless other fluent speakers. Mind you, they may have got there by having to focus on quality a lot more: struggling for "perfect" delivery, as it were, rather than good enough. And there's certainly downsides to good enough, aren't there: the sorts usually associated with immigrant-like, forced, untutored output, ie fossilisation of bad habits - not just in pronunciation (which wouldn't necessarily be an issue), but also in phrasing. The latter may be difficult (or extremely time-consuming) for you to analyse and correct by yourself. But you're right that this will certainly help achieve a more literal definition of fluency: speaking fast and confidently.

 

Anyway, it was lovely to "meet" you, Rebecca, and thank you so much for sharing this idea with us.

[Woodford]

Reminds me of this video I just saw on YouTube! It's about learning to speak a language without talking to people (okay, it's a rather funny, clickbaity title):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxHKkfbcRKQ 

[Zeppa]

I thought it was very funny, but then that was just the FluentU ad to skip! Is it the man talking about Japanese? I couldn't watch much of him.

[becky82]

I just crossed the 100-hour mark in my 500-hour challenge .  What's changed thus far?

• I'm substantially less nervous about speaking Chinese in front of the camera.
• I'm finding myself paying a lot of attention to mistakes in my pronunciation, and especially tones.  There's an "invisible audience" that I'm talking to.  I sometimes listen to my own videos, and discover pronunciation errors I don't realize I'm making.
• My speaking speed seems to have increased.  It's not just that I'm getting better at mentally constructing sentences, I feel like my muscles are getting better at knowing what to do.  It's like hitting the racetrack, but for my facial muscles.
• I'm becoming increasingly interested in making YouTube videos, and increasingly aware of YouTube's many features.  (And I'm becoming increasingly aware how many new skills I'd need to become a successful YouTuber.)
• I find myself trying quirky study methods, e.g., in my latest video, I seem to have created a new type of challenge: a kind of speedrun where I read aloud a text as fast as I can.
• Developers of various websites I use, like HSK Level and MyLingua, seem to find my videos helpful for understanding how their sites are being used.

I've deleted a few videos, since e.g. I accidentally leaked my info in them (and editing videos is 麻烦).  Sometimes my battery or storage space has run out while videoing on the go.  I've tried livestreaming, but it's just too complicated since I live in China and YouTube is blocked.

 

At the moment, I haven't spent a fortune (perhaps 100 yuan).  I bought some ultra-cheap equipment (mic, stands, green screen) since I don't know where this is all going.  But I feel like I should buy a good quality mic; even if this ends up going nowhere, I can use the mic for other things.

[becky82]

According to this app, I'm at

 

Quote

Total length of playlist : 8 days, 21 hours, 36 minutes, 59 seconds

 

which equates to 213 hours.

 

I had a bit of a gap where I got COVID (you probably heard about the wave in Beijing in the news), and after having COVID, I had very little "oomph" to do anything for quite a while (you need a lot of energy in front of the camera).  Nowadays I'm back at it; my iTalki classes helped me find motivation.

 

- I found the YouTube channel was a distraction from actually studying Chinese, especially adding subtitles to videos, but also lots of other aspects.  Currently I use https://jianwai.youdao.com/ to automatically generate subtitles, which sounds like it would be fast, but even that still chews up time.  (It's limited to 2 hours per day, which means I have to adjust my video size to use as much of that 2 hours each day...).  I think I've made an executive decision: the method I'm using is fine, I'll just keep using it to reach 500 hours of oral Chinese and not spend too much time tweaking.  Focus on the goal.

 

- I used to be a bit trepidatious about getting nasty comments on my videos.  The reality is, the people who don't like my videos simply don't watch them.  (Do you remember that Simpson's episode where Lisa asks "Why would they come to our concert just to boo us?")  I haven't got a single nasty comment thus far.

 

- I think it's fair to say that speaking, which used to be my weakness, has now caught up with the other aspects.  Now I feel like I have a fairly well-rounded skill set.  Maybe listening is my weakest aspect now.

 

- You can clearly see that I'm rather unsystematic about what I study ("here's three random pages from a novel"; "here's a whole academic paper").  I guess it's good for getting diverse practice and helps me maintain interest.

 

Edit:  It seems YouTube is truncating my playlist to 200 videos; I have more videos than that, but it's not showing up.  This is the downside to this project---all these "fiddly details".

[abcdefg]

The thing I found most useful about casual conversations with people when I lived in China was finding out whether or not they understood me. If the people I met and talked with were always "drawing a blank," then it meant I was saying things wrong. Either I was using non-native sentence patterns or I was pronouncing words wrong or maybe I was putting the emphasis in the wrong places to a degree that upset the rhythm and interfered with understanding.

 

I made a point of troubleshooting these issues with a teacher. I would try to reproduce the conversation that "didn't work," explain in some round about way what I really meant, and ask for thoughts on how to do it better next time. Armed with this information, I would hurry to test it in real life, on the street, to see whether or not I had actually "got it." 

 

My teachers were so painfully polite. I could absolutely butcher something and they would say, "其实，你说的有点不太对。" On the street, mangling the same phrase would just get me a blank stare. The feedback was unmistakable and blunt. Greatly motivating.  

 

This exercise you are doing may have some benefits in promoting fluency, but the big element it lacks, in my opinion, is the instant feedback that real conversation provides. Maybe "phase two" of your project could include some unscripted conversations with ordinary people who are native speakers. 

[becky82]

On 1/26/2023 at 10:46 AM, abcdefg said:

This exercise you are doing may have some benefits in promoting fluency, but the big element it lacks, in my opinion, is the instant feedback that real conversation provides. Maybe "phase two" of your project could include some unscripted conversations with ordinary people who are native speakers. 

 

Yes, but also... this quickly gets complicated and political.  I don't want to "use" people, and living in Beijing, it's very hard to find people who actually want to talk to me who don't want to "benefit" in some way.  If I'm not paying them, or if I'm not teaching them English, they don't want to talk with me.  I think it's due to the pressure in Beijing, e.g. high cost of living makes people desperate to get something in return.  This is one reason why I want to move elsewhere.

 

Being on YouTube detaches my progress from others.  I can improve whether or not other people are willing to help me.  If I peg my progress to others, they decide how much I improve, not me.

 

Talking with iTalki teachers is incredibly easy.  If I talk to random people (hang around restaurants at 2pm or so, and staff or delivery people may want to fill in time and are up for a chat), the problem is that we almost always have the same cardboard-cutout conversation (learning Chinese, food, living in China, travel, family, job, Australia).  I've had these conversations so many times that I'm not going to benefit from having them again.  I need to find someone who's interested in science, or some topic I also want to talk about.

 

Maybe next in line is to get a job at a university; maybe I can teach in Chinese.  If I go to a top university they'll force me to teach English, but maybe it's not like that at a less prestigious university.  We'll see what the future holds.

[abcdefg]

On 1/26/2023 at 7:04 PM, becky82 said:

Maybe next in line is to get a job at a university; maybe I can teach in Chinese.

 

Sounds like an excellent idea. It would surely help you broaden the "conversation pool." One year I took a part-time job at Kunming Medical University helping with faculty training mainly for reasons like that. Wanted to meet people with whom I could develop shared professional interests. Was tired of playing "20 simple questions to ask foreigners." 

[Jan Finster]

On 1/27/2023 at 2:04 AM, becky82 said:

If I'm not paying them, or if I'm not teaching them English, they don't want to talk with me.  I think it's due to the pressure in Beijing, e.g. high cost of living makes people desperate to get something in return.  This is one reason why I want to move elsewhere.

 

On 1/27/2023 at 2:04 AM, becky82 said:

I've had these conversations so many times that I'm not going to benefit from having them again.  I need to find someone who's interested in science, or some topic I also want to talk about.

This may not be your thing, but you could find a tandem partner, who wants to learn English, and choose difficult topics. The partneranswers in English (to learn) and you speak Mandarin. Alternatively, you first discuss the topic in English and then in Mandarin.

 

[becky82]

On 1/27/2023 at 1:23 PM, Jan Finster said:

This may not be your thing, but you could find a tandem partner, who wants to learn English, and choose difficult topics. The partneranswers in English (to learn) and you speak Mandarin. Alternatively, you first discuss the topic in English and then in Mandarin.

 

Even though I haven't used this precise method, language exchanges have always been 得不偿失 for me.  Spending half your time in English necessarily halves your study efficiency, putting aside organization time.  I'd rather just pay for community tutors on iTalki, where I can have class whenever I want, and there's no time spent teaching English.

[Dr Mack Rettosy]

太棒了！This is a wonderfully creative and ambitious project. From what I can tell your use of the language is improving so this seems to be working for you beyond just acting as as motivator. I do think abcdefg has some good suggestions. Hoping that you can find some conversation partners that fulfill your needs. I'll be following your progress with great interest. Thanks for sharing.

[becky82]

On 10/20/2022 at 6:46 AM, becky82 said:

I expect will take at least 4+ months (I can't speak much more than 4 hours per day).

 

Oh, Becky.  If only it were as easy as "speaking 4 hours" = "4 hours of videos".

 

Realistically, some videos get thrown out (e.g. you accidentally reveal your personal information, or someone else's personal information, or you Google some new word, and it turns out to be inappropriate to show in a YouTube video, or there's some equipment malfunction mid-video).  Sure, you could edit them, but it takes less time (and is more beneficial from a language-learning standpoint) to record a new video from scratch.

 

Realistically, it takes time to get everything ready to record.  You can't just roll out of bed in the morning and press record.

 

Realistically, you also have other things to do, like take classes and read books, and go out and have fun.

 

Realistically, it takes time to upload large files to YouTube, and generate subtitles, and add all the metadata, and check that you haven't done anything silly (like upload the wrong subtitles file).  And it takes many hours trying multiple different methods to learn how to generate subtitles (and likewise for multiple other software), then you also need to adjust your speaking style to facilitate subtitle generation.

 

Realistically, it can be hard to find novel things to talk about video after video.

 

You also need to learn YouTube's rules and the relevant copyright matters.  You also spend time watching YouTube videos on how to make YouTube videos, decide what hardware to buy, etc.

 

(Oh, and COVID can go take a long walk off a short pier.)

[becky82]

For those who have been following, I'm over 300 hours now.  Precisely, 308.6 hours are public right now, and my YouTube channel probably has 20+ hours of videos already uploaded but not yet public.  This is putting aside videos I made but decided not to upload, and various other oral practice (e.g., Chinese class).  I'd like to speed up and reach the 500 hour goal more quickly (it's starting to feel like it's dragging on), but the catch is nobody wants to watch me speak Chinese for many hours a day.  From a YouTube channel's perspective, uploading an hour-long video every single day is already a huge amount.  I have to balance the YouTube channel with my goal of reaching 500 hours oral practice.

 

What's changed:

 

- My oral Chinese is still improving; it's becoming much more automatic than before.  I'm concentrating more on what I'm doing, not what I'm saying.  In recent videos, I analyzed chess games relating to the world chess championship (go Ding!), and what I wanted to say flowed far more easier than in the past (despite not having recently studied chess-specific vocabulary).  That being said, I still "um" and "ah" a lot---too much for my liking.

 

- ChatGPT has changed everything.  I can sit for hours chatting with ChatGPT in Chinese.  Sometimes I study Chinese with ChatGPT, but usually we just have a conversation.  I like using Chinese to learn other things, especially unfamiliar scientific concepts.  When I make videos, I read aloud what ChatGPT writes.  I use this website to interact with ChatGPT: https://poe.com/Sage, because other sites don't seem to work for me here in Beijing.  I'm worried ChatGPT will become unavailable, so I'm trying to make hay while the sun shines and use it as much as possible right now.  One of the best prompts I've found for ChatGPT is "pretend your a [middle school teacher], and I'm interviewing you".  And then I ask ChatGPT whatever questions spring to mind as the conversation evolves; ChatGPT can stay in character for quite a while.  (ChatGPT is awful at jokes in Chinese.)

 

- ChatGPT sometimes says things which are ungrammatical, but it's pretty rare (ChatGPT 3.5 turbo), with about the same frequency that I'm used to encountering in other online study resources (like tatoeba.org).  And at my level, you're expected to be able to recognize and auto-correct errors (anything that sounds awkward, I try not to emulate).  This downside is outweighed by getting a huge amount of input on whatever topic I want: voluminous, compelling, comprehensible, diverse input!  It's also outweighed by ChatGPT often using more precise vocabulary than humans.

 

- ChatGPT is very repetitive, and it often repeats itself repetitively, over and over.  So I often find myself, while reading aloud what ChatGPT writes, repeatedly saying the same things over and over, which is excellent oral practice (although it'd bore human teachers)---my speech is getting faster and faster, and smoother and smoother.  It's certainly not perfect, but it's so much better than before.

 

- I have a mathematics background, and it's almost impossible to find a Chinese teacher who wants to talk about maths---Chinese teachers tend not to have scientific backgrounds.  (Okay, one of my teachers sometimes sends me maths memes in Chinese and gets me to explain them.)  However, I can talk with ChatGPT about maths at an academic level.  Sure, it's often flat-out wrong about things, but that keeps me on my toes---I have to understand what it's saying, and may have to correct it, much like having a student.  If one day I go back into academia in China, being able to practice discussing mathematics in Chinese with ChatGPT may make a huge difference.

 

Anyway, it seems listening (and comprehension) is now my main weakness.  I'm hoping improving my speaking will help with listening; we'll see.

[becky82]

I may have inadvertently stumbled upon a new study method.

 

Step 1: Make a video on a topic.

Step 2: Compare with a native speaker's video on the same topic.

 

E.g. this is my analysis of the Ding vs. Nepo (round 12) game in the world chess championship, and this is GM Yang Kaiqi's analysis.  I watched it after making my video, and I kept thinking "oh, I should have said that instead".  It's also fairly good listening practice, because I know almost all the vocab and expressions he uses.  (It seems I picked up some Yang Kaiqi-isms, having watched his videos before.)

 

[PS. Are you all watching the tournament?  It's so exciting!!  Go Ding!]

[becky82]

I'm not sure who's still following along, but I'm nearly at the 500-hour mark (This says I'm at 445.5 hours of uploaded videos).  So what's new?

• I've been getting out and about in China, and just narrating what I see.  Sometimes people talk to me, sometimes they don't.  (Sometimes they wait until after I've finished recording a video before talking to me.)  My friend gave me a gimbal, and that's "upped my video game", and I bought new lapel mics.
• I feel utterly exhausted; 500 hours really is too much, and it's hard finding motivation nowadays.  If I were going to do a similar challenge again, I might do 200 or 300 hours.  I'm likely over 500 hours already, since sometimes I don't upload videos for various reasons (e.g. no sound; too much noise; no battery; computer crashes; accidentally reveal personal information).  I spend too much time fumbling around with videos (storing them, uploading them, generating subtitles, etc.).
• I feel a kind of "diminishing returns" effect is taking place.  The benefit in going from 0 to 100 hours was huge, but going from 400 to 500 hours is not nearly as noticeable.
• While my oral Chinese has improved, it's come at the expense of other aspects.

I'm looking forward to reaching 500 hours and focusing on other things.  I think next on the agenda is taking the HSK6 again.  Perhaps I'll continue studying the HSK7-9 vocab (but my study methods have changed with the advent of ChatGPT).

 

As for my channel?  It would be nice to make better videos---ideally shorter, scripted, well-rehearsed videos that people might benefit from.  I like a style that starts off very easy, but gets increasingly challenging as the video progresses (think: the house that jack built).  The thing is, I don't have video editing skills, and learning this would detract from studying Chinese.  I also worry there's so many videos on YouTube already; what's the point?  The other thing is, maybe I should go and get a job now that China is kind of back to normal.  I have a maths PhD and there seem to be relevant jobs being advertised.