Chinese teaching methods are evolving

[Jan Finster]

One of the great things about the whole pandemic is the explosion of Youtube channels teaching Chinese. There are also tons of teachers that use YT to promote themselves and give samples of their teaching methods.

 

Here is the old style of teaching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vsO_j72WcQ&ab_channel=LearnChinese

 

Here are some refreshing new styles:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUnXWSRItfs&ab_channel=ComprehensibleChinese
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj77anX-j5I&t=1978s&ab_channel=UnconventionalChinesewithKeren
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiSo5rH-hV8&ab_channel=ComprehensibleMandarin

 

[Moshen]

Jan,

 

I'm sure you would agree that not all new methods are as good as old methods.  What do you see as the benefits of the new methods you recommended? 

 

 

[Jan Finster]

On 11/6/2022 at 3:48 PM, Moshen said:

What do you see as the benefits of the new methods you recommended? 

 

For one, they are not the boring "classroom style" way of teaching. I absolutely hate that way of teaching.

Benefits are immersion in engaging content and acquiring a language naturally.

 

Chinese teachers are starting to adopt the comprehensible input principles, TPRS, storytelling, creating silly stories in groups, etc. Those are not inherently new concepts, but it has taken a while until they have reached Chinese teachers.

 

Here is some theory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnUc_W3xE1w

https://study.com/learn/lesson/comprehensible-input-hypothesis-examples.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au4CoCLi1Is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpHFNUoDrY8&ab_channel=Emuallim

 

Here are some examples from other languages: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeLY6jFHegk&ab_channel=DreamingSpanish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDckOBtxB5s&ab_channel=Poly-glot-a-lot

[Flickserve]

Here’s another.

 

Don’t know why they have so few subscribers.

[TheBigZaboon]

Where's another???

[Jan Finster]

On 11/7/2022 at 8:54 AM, Flickserve said:

Don’t know why they have so few subscribers.

 

Well, is going by the number of subscribers really a good metric? By that logic Xiaomanyc  https://www.youtube.com/c/小马在纽约/videos is a better polyglot than Prof Arguelles (https://www.youtube.com/user/ProfASAr)...

 

TPRS and story-telling are not your typical classroom-style teaching methods. I did not know about them until about a year ago. 

 

I am not trying to convince you or anyone that those are better. Find what works for you. The internet is full of people claiming that SRSing with Anki is the way to go to learn a language. Well,....

 

Personally, I find those methods much more engaging and therefore I spend way more time listening to them than to those classical teaching methods. In the end, anything that keeps you engaged with the language is beneficial. 

[Flickserve]

On 11/7/2022 at 4:05 PM, TheBigZaboon said:

Where's another???

Here !

 

https://youtu.be/kiSo5rH-hV8

[PerpetualChange]

Has anyone ever taken a private lesson with one of these teachers? 

Making an engaging video is one thing, but I've been curious as to whether there's really a "method" behind it, or if it's just shiny new packaging on the same old stuff. 

 

I've noticed a bit, in other fields, that Youtube "experts" often do not have as much expertise as you'd hope, and unfortunately, it's not really obvious until you get far down the rabbits hole and realize that they're just "kinda wingin'" the content or taking it from elsewhere with no real methodology behind it. Several huge Youtubers in the realm of Music and Music Theory are this way. 

 

Having so many opportunities to learn and listen is great - I'm just curious whether, say, "Unconventional Chinese" is really better than the HSK video for your longterm investment. She's cuter, sure. Her videos are more fun to watch. But is there really that much more to it? The HSK is the result of a collective expertise and effort that has taught millions how to speak Chinese. 

[Jan Finster]

On 11/7/2022 at 4:28 PM, PerpetualChange said:

Youtube "experts"

 

OK, I understand your scepticism. However, who says you must book lessons with them. I have zero intention doing so. Not because they are bad, but because I can enjoy the comprehensible input I want simply by watching their YT videos. In fact, I would not pay for a 1:1 lesson where someone simply explains a picture to me. However, if that teacher can make me tell a funny story or make me talk about what is happening in a cartoon movie, I would be all in. I had a teacher, who planned to go through the HSK 4 textbook with me. I stopped after 1 lesson, because I was so bored (I have paid for 10 lessons in advance...).

I 100% know for myself that I would very much enjoy teachers like the ones I suggested. So, if I ever have lessons again, I will ask the Italki teachers to do it the way I see in the videos. 

 

On 11/7/2022 at 4:28 PM, PerpetualChange said:

The HSK is the result of a collective expertise and effort that has taught millions how to speak Chinese. 

 

I think you give HSK more credit than it deserves. At some point some big wigs agreed on a "standard" curriculum and certain test criteria. This does not necessarily imply it is by default the best method out there. In my field of work the criteria and methods proposed by some university big wigs are typically frowned upon by experts, who are actually "in the field". (of course, I also wonder if there are any numbers how many students actually ever make it beyond HSK 4. I doubt there are "millions"....

 

 

[Flickserve]

On 11/7/2022 at 11:28 PM, PerpetualChange said:

Has anyone ever taken a private lesson with one of these teachers? 

Yes. I did find one on italki a few years ago. The first few lessons were quite good. I felt I made progress. Take into context that I didn’t know too much vocabulary, perhaps HSK 2 level with some random extra words. After a few lessons, the style changed to a more regular style so I saw no reason to continue.
 

Possibly she ran out of suitable stories for middle aged adults.

 

Engaging videos are one thing - I agree with that. Looking further behind and whether it can be followed up with effective longer term teaching is a question I also agree with.

 

From my experience, I don't think there's any big reason to be over skeptical over the TPRS technique. Repeating vocabulary with visual and situational context is how we learn, even in our own native language.

 

[Flickserve]

On 11/8/2022 at 1:15 AM, Jan Finster said:

However, if that teacher can make me tell a funny story or make me talk about what is happening in a cartoon movie, I would be all in.

 

I imagine TPRS being more taxing for the teacher. The teacher needs to be more creative with preparing materials and keep repeating the same vocabulary during the lesson. If it’s with a HSK 4 level learner, I think the learner would pick up the lesson vocabulary pretty quickly.

 

 I haven’t looked recently but I think TPRS mandarin teachers are far fewer in number and charge more. 
 

I am also going through a HSK 4 textbook and I find the material very dry and I can’t really connect with the style. Not sure if the method of teaching is evidence based with back up from statistical analysis, as opposed to eminence based opinion. 

[PerpetualChange]

On 11/7/2022 at 12:15 PM, Jan Finster said:

However, who says you must book lessons with them. I have zero intention doing so.

 

Sure, but I would guess that you see it as more a supplement to regular study done elsewhere, then. When I think of "Teaching Methods", I think of things that can get you, basically, from 0 to fluent. And that's the part I'm skeptical with. As noted elsewhere in this thread, a lot of these Youtubers and social media accounts are dolling out "samples" and hoping a few people will click to buy private lessons or sign up for a patreon. That's fine, but that's also why I'm curious if there's really much to the "method" beyond a good video. So, in other words, the marketing may be evolving, but I'm less sure about the method. 

 

Oh don't mind me, I've just seen a few smiley, happy young people that seem to know all the answers in my day, and always come away disappointed in the end... lol.

 

[Jan Finster]

On 11/8/2022 at 4:46 PM, PerpetualChange said:

That's fine, but that's also why I'm curious if there's really much to the "method" beyond a good video. So, in other words, the marketing may be evolving, but I'm less sure about the method. 

 

Oh don't mind me, I've just seen a few smiley, happy young people that seem to know all the answers in my day, and always come away disappointed in the end... lol.

 I have posted links aboubt TPRS and comprehensible input above. I do not believe anyone seriously doubts those methods.

 

As to the teachers: they have taken classes or certificates in those methods and are teachers themselves.

 

Most importantly, I am not looking for that one source or one person, who knows it all and will bring me from zero to elite. I pick and mix my Chinese learning sources. Over the past 3 years I have literally used over 100 different sources. I am subscribed to over 100 Chinese channels. I am Patreon of none. So, maybe my attitude towards them is more relaxed, because I enjoy them, learn from them and then move on....

[PerpetualChange]

That's great! Make no mistake - I think it's great that there are so many materials out there to immerse. 

 

The nature of my comment referred more to the "method" aspect of what you're saying, i.e., can a certain channel you might invest a lot of time (and money) in take you from the beginning all the way up until you feel enabled to seek out your own learning path? Foe example, you linked to Unconventional Chinese. I've explored quite a bit of their content, and find Keren's approach to be interesting. The marketing materials she uses market her just as much, if not more, than the language or methodology you're presumably there for. And a single hour lesson with Keren is $120 per 40 minutes (her assistant, Yan, goes for $70). That's a lot of money to spend on a teacher, so you'd want to be sure that there is something to those lessons. Gotta know, why $120? Is the method that good, or is it just the sparkle of Keren's attractive personality? 

 

But I see, you are more talking about the wealth of materials out there that you can use to get sustenance from easily and cheapy. That makes sense. Those of us who've been at it for awhile develop our own methods that make it fun and suitable for us. 

[Jan Finster]

On 11/8/2022 at 10:06 PM, PerpetualChange said:

And a single hour lesson with Keren is $120 per 40 minutes (her assistant, Yan, goes for $70). That's a lot of money to spend on a teacher, so you'd want to be sure that there is something to those lessons. Gotta know, why $120? Is the method that good, or is it just the sparkle of Keren's attractive personality? 

Yes, it would be ludicrous to pay that price. Totally insane in fact. Some do, I guess as part of a group and split the cost. She is based in the US, so I assume the salary expectations are higher than for a random italki teacher from China. But still...insane to pay that amount of money.

[Flickserve]

I have heard of USD 120 as a charge for a tutor going to private firms in the finance industry and giving one to one tuition. I think it’s for an hour.

 

Is Keren’s charge for in person teaching rather than online? Just asking out of curiosity. If I had a firm sponsoring my lessons, yeah no issue!

[Moshen]

This reminds me of a survey that asked people whether knowing that a financial advisor was famous would make them more likely to want to hire them.  The introverts in the survey said no, that they would rather hire someone who was unknown and devoting all their energy to their work instead of to marketing.

 

But on the other hand, there are people who are swayed by flash and media fame, who would indeed pay a premium for someone who was well known in some way.  This is known in the marketing industry as "social proof" although popularity and flash are actually not proof of competence.

[Jan Finster]

On 11/9/2022 at 11:47 AM, Moshen said:

This reminds me of a survey that asked people whether knowing that a financial advisor was famous would make them more likely to want to hire them.  The introverts in the survey said no, that they would rather hire someone who was unknown and devoting all their energy to their work instead of to marketing.

 

But on the other hand, there are people who are swayed by flash and media fame, who would indeed pay a premium for someone who was well known in some way.  This is known in the marketing industry as "social proof" although popularity and flash are actually not proof of competence.

 

Sure, but the reverse is also true: assuming the quiet person is automatically inherently more qualified than the flashy one is likely just as false. 

[PerpetualChange]

Just saw a tiktok ad from the aforementioned "Unconventional Chinese" where she was doing some intense yoga, and the video lesson ended in her giving a sales pitch for the Yoga mat she was using. Gotta wonder, with those rates and that huge following, why the need to shill oneself out to sponsorships? 

 

Just makes me concerned generally about the quality of content and newer learners thinking that curating their own Youtube videos is going to be an "on the cheap" way to replace the methodical approach provided by traditional learning.

[Moshen]

Quote

Just saw a tiktok ad from the aforementioned "Unconventional Chinese" where she was doing some intense yoga, and the video lesson ended in her giving a sales pitch for the Yoga mat she was using. Gotta wonder, with those rates and that huge following, why the need to shill oneself out to sponsorships? 

 

Some people are just greedy, out to grab what they can when they can and not care about building a quality reputation that can last.  (I didn't watch the video, so this may or may not apply to her specifically.)

 

One thing you don't need to worry about from conventional teachers is them suddenly trying to sell you the video camera or pen they are using.