陆犯焉识

[Jim]

Reads to me as if he's talking about the children of the village - they're the "products of their parents' boring nights" where there's nothing better to do than procreate. Did a quick search for the context and that fits with the line that follows about the little girl.

[Fred0]

And the paragraph before is about the children playing merrily even as they are starving. I would never have seen that reading of it. Thanks so much! I have to learn to trust the straight-forward grammar of the sentence, borng modifies evening, evening modifies product. watching the products of the boring evenings screeching and frisking.

[Jim]

On 7/28/2023 at 10:51 AM, Fred0 said:

have to learn to trust the straight-forward grammar of the sentence

Yes, this is so true! Unless the writer is quirky or incompetent, they usually are saying what the grammar suggests they are, and are as likely to be being allusive or playful as in any other language.

[Babylon]

枯索之夜的产品在尖叫撒欢
You know what, the "枯索" appearing here is amazing. At the first time I saw this word in your post I didn't recognize it at all even if I'm a native Chinese, I have never heard it and don't know what it means and felt weird. "枯燥" is common. So the strange feeling drove me to search the source text online, then from the context I realize the first layer of meaning is that the children of the poor couple were playing ... just like those words you have translated into "boring", "dull", "tedious", they are all right. But one extra layer of meaning was lingering in my mind when I vetted this word again. The "枯" means "枯萎"(withered) and the "索" is "索要"(thirst for), so the "枯索之夜" hints a sexy night, a withered flower was thirsting for the dew of menfolk... 绝了(tour-de-force)
 

[Fred0]

The only definition I found for 枯索 was  1.枯萎;憔悴。 2.枯燥乏味。https://www.zdic.net/hans/枯索  

 

The second definition seemed the most appropriate to describe an evening. Your comments add another layer of meaning. Thank you.

 

[Babylon]

枯索这个词我之前也查到了定义 出自古诗文言文 但这词基本上现代中国人日常生活上不会用 在大街上抓个中国人说这个词 然后让他写 可能基本上都写不对是哪个字 也没有听说过 当然也可能是我没文化 反感文言文吧 哈哈 基本上 这个词只出现在引经据典上 或者一些现代文学作品里 尤其是喜欢咬文嚼字 故弄玄虚 卖弄学问的作品上 我个人不喜欢这个词 觉得既没有美感 意思也不清晰 不过如果这个作者故意在这里想表达我说的那层意思 就比较高级了
 

[Babylon]

中文实际上语法非常宽松 随便两个字都可以搭到一起 组成一个词 比如我可以说 枯随之夜 枯便之夜 ... 但是这样随便搭配的话 没什么意义 对吧？那枯索这样搭配的意义是什么？我是想不出这个索是怎么引出来的 不过查了一下字典 应该是出自 "索然无味"吧 也就是"枯燥"加"索然无味" 就是"枯索"了 有点牵强 不过还算说得通吧 但是索的这种用法的可用度是完全排在"索要"后面的 基本上只有"索然无味" 这一种搭配 而且索然无味表达枯燥的成分主要在无味 索本身感觉还是索要的意思 索要了 然而 无味... 所以枯索这个词我怎么都觉得别扭... 

 

[Fred0]

感谢您的进一步评论。 该作者可能具有您提到的一些特色。 但我对中文写作的判断不太好。

[Babylon]

"索"原意出自名词"绳索" 因为这个字下面有一个"系" 作动词用时基本上只有一个意思 就是顺着绳子"索要"或者"搜索" 那么这里"枯索"也可以理解为 "枯萎的索要" 就是索要不到的意思 但这样理解还是不准确 ... 

上文言文原文 下面是copy的

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枯索的解释 枯萎；憔悴。 汉 王充 《论衡·顺鼓》：“蝗虫时至，或飞或集。 所集之地，穀草枯索。

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所以原文里边索还是绳索的意思 并没有索要的意思 也不是索然无味 而是表达了 被蝗虫吃光的植被像一堆绳子一样枯萎的样子 

但是作者把这个词拿来用作形容普通家庭里面破败的样子 可以说并不合适 因为根本就是两种完全不同的场景 会给阅读的人带来很大的困扰 除非这个人去查原文，要不然他根本就不知道这个索是个什么东西 可能连作者自己都不知道这个索是这个意思... 一星差评...

 

 

[Fred0]

 

Laoji has given Dengzhi, the chief guard overseeing him in the prison camp, his prized posession, a platinum Omega wrist watch, as a bribe, so Deng will allow Laoji to view the movie in which his grown daughter appears. The next day Deng comes with the news that the watch is broken and brings him to his home to see if Laoji somehow can fix it. Laoji is looking at the watch, which is being held up on the wrist of Deng’s wife, while Deng is looking on.

 

老几结着老垢的脸侧面盛接着邓指带刺的目光。

 

I really can’t make any sense of this sentence. The best I can do is:

Laoji catches and holds the thorny expession on Dengzhi’s face, as he is gazing from the side at Laoji’s old, dirty face.

 

What does 结着mean and to what or whom does it refer, and same with 盛? What is a good translation? Even if my translation is right, I still don’t know how I got to it. It’s more of a guess than a reading of the sentence.

 

I take Laoji to be the subject of this sentence because the next sentence begins with Laoji speaking in his fake stutter (结巴).  他结巴着说，欧米茄从来没有这么捣乱过，从1936年一直规规矩矩走到现在。

[Jim]

I think it's 结着脸 which will be screwing up his face, with the description of that face as dirty inserted inside the phrasal verb. The 盛 will be in the sense of 'full', as in he's getting the full force of Dengzhi's piercing glare. So the whole thing is something like:

 

Lao Ji screwed up his filthy face [in consternation], all the while feeling the full force of Dengzhi's fierce glare bearing down from one side.

[Fred0]

That makes it perfectly clear. Thanks very much. Every time, I learn. So grateful.

[TheBigZaboon]

With you two doing all the work, we all learn...

 

Please don't give up: I, at least, benefit from a taste of things Chinese that I would never have the time or inclination to read if left to do it on my own...

 

Just sayin' (gratefully)...

 

TBZ 

[Fred0]

Before I post a question, I want to express my thanks to Roddy Flagg and/or whoever else did all the work of transferring the Chinese forum to a new platform. I am truly grateful for your efforts.

 

What might this expression or common saying mean: 不死蜕层皮？   Laoji has worn a layer of epidermis off his body as the result of his long night's walking to and from the viewing of the movie in which his daughter appears. It is because he is wearing coarsely-lined clothing with no underwear. 

 

I couldn't locate this phrase in any refereence I know of.

 

My guess is that it refers to someone who has gone through an arduous task- as though to say, it didn't kill me but it took off a layer of skin, i.e. it took everything I had to give.

[Jim]

There's a 歇后语 that goes 耗子钻灶火 -- 不死也要脱层皮 and similar, including versions involving boiling water - rat on a hot stove - even if it doesn't die it's going to lose some skin, i.e. this thing is going to hurt/harm you.

Something else slightly different came up in a search but not sure if it's a back etymology: 农村俗语：见到蛇脱皮，不死脱层皮！看见蛇脱皮，真的这么可怕吗 (sina.cn)

Quote

农村有句俗语叫“见到蛇脱皮，不死脱层皮。”字面意思是看见蛇正在蜕皮，就算不死也会遭遇像蛇蜕皮那样痛苦的事情，所以在老人们眼里，看见蛇蜕皮是很不吉利的征兆，会有不好的事情发生。

So while the basic meaning is similar, the emphasis here seems to be on the inauspiciousness of it.

[Fred0]

Thanks, and thanks for the reference of sina.cn. I had found that article but didn't have the patience to read it. I assumed it was a nature story about snakes! Another lesson in patience and perseverence that I can thank you for.

[cncorrect]

The name is Lu Yanshi, not Lu Yanzhi.

[Fred0]

We are learning some new facts about prisoner Laoji’s children, and we are told that he learned these facts from a letter from his wife Wanyu.

这都是婉喻信里讲给他听的。婉喻的信寄到一个神秘的“信箱”，信箱前面一串数码。婉喻每一个秀丽的毛笔字都是给信箱后面一双双眼睛仔细地看过，才到达老几手中的。

 

How should one understand the meaning of 前面 and 后面in this passage? This is my best attempt, in which I don’t have much confidence:

 

This this was all told to him in a letter from Wanyu. Her letter was sent to a mysterious “mailbox (address).” On front side, the address was a string of numbers, every character of which was writtten by Wanyu in beautiful brush strokes, while on the back side it had been scrupulously viewed by one after another pairs of eyes, before finally getting into Laoji’s hands.

 

[Jim]

I'd read it as the address of the mailbox was 'preceded' by this string of numbers, adding to the mystery/oddness, then the eyes are 'behind' it very like how that works in English, as in, these are the shadowy figures behind the system of communicating through censored mailboxes.

[Fred0]

Thanks very much. That makes sense. I was tempted to read it in that way, but I didn't trust myself- the officials behind the scenes.