"的" in 这篇文章还蛮有意思的

[Maelstrom]

Hey, I know about the 3 different usages of 的, the "shi...de" pattern, to emphasize, and to ommit an already known noun. 
But it´s not quite clear for me what´s the meaning of the ending 的 in 这篇文章还蛮有意思的.

Is it A: to simply emphasize the sentence?

or B: to ommit "文章"? Like 有意思的文章

Maybe someone can clarify that for me. Thank you in advance.

[sanchuan]

It's both. 

[骏马的丕沿?]

Here, 的 is used to emphasize that the article is interesting.

 

"的" has a plethora of different kinds of unique uses (between approximately five and twenty, depending on how you count them), not just three. In your particular example, "的" corresponds to the following definition: "用   在   句   末  ，表示   肯定   的   语气   或   已然   的   语气". Do you understand this definition? You can think of "肯定" as just a way of "定"-ing, namely in a "肯"/confirmative way. So "肯定" means "confirm"/"confirming". "语气" is kind of like the "气"/"感觉"/"色彩" of your "语"/"语言"/"言语"/"话". So "肯定的语气" is used to highlight that something is true. "已然" is simple to understand if you know what "已" and "然" mean; but in short, "已然" basically means "already happened". "已然的语气" is used to highlight that something already happened.Anyway, this definition provides as much detail as the layperson would need to know in order to use this kind of "的" correctly.

 

Notice how the above definition doesn't specify anything about: 1) the kind of 句子/sentence (e.g. declarative, interrogative, etc.) being dealt with, or 2) using "是". But this definition happened to come with two example sentences that show that we can use this kind of "的" in either declarative sentences (陈述句) or interrogative sentences (疑问句). We can also add "是" if we want. If we mix and match, we will have a total of four different kinds of combinations.

 

Let's go back to your particular example:

 

"这篇文章还蛮有意思的" is a 陈述句 with no "是" used. You could, however, add a "是" to obtain: "这篇文章还是蛮有意思的".

 

Let's consider another example:

 

"老王什么时候走的？" is a 疑问句 that doesn't use "是". If you add "是", you would get: "老王是什么时候走的？".

 

All of the above four examples are equally valid and use the same kind of "的".

[Guest realmayo]

Personally I don't think 'emphasise' is the right word here at all, it just confuses people, because no normal person will read 这篇文章还蛮有意思的 and think "aha, something is being emphasised here". Yes there is a "是...的 used for emphasis" grammar rule, but this isn't it.

 

For sure, I agree that in this sentence it is modal / a 语气词.

[骏马的丕沿?]

On 5/21/2023 at 5:15 AM, realmayo said:

Personally I don't think 'emphasise' is the right word here at all, it just confuses people, because no normal person will read 这篇文章还蛮有意思的 and think "aha, something is being emphasised here"

 

When I say "的 is used to emphasize", I don't mean that some user of Chinese is expected to vividly think to him-/her-self that this kind of "的" is emphasizing something upon reading some sentence.

 

Rather, I speak only to the nature of the word "的" itself. In "这篇文章还蛮有意思的", "的" 表示肯定的语气。In other words, "的" 起强调作用 (and it seems to me that one cannot 表示 "肯定的语气" without 强调-ing at the same time). But this is the main inherent function of "的" in this sentence, anyway.

 

Furthermore, if you are in the process of constructing a sentence, and you wish to 表达 "这篇文章蛮有意思" 的意思, then you could proactively add a "的" in the end to emphasize that "这篇文章蛮有意思" and are familiar with this kind of "的" (the end result would be "这篇文章还蛮有意思 + 的"). There would be nothing wrong with this.

 

On 5/21/2023 at 5:15 AM, realmayo said:

there is a "是...的 used for emphasis" grammar rule, but this isn't it

 

It depends on what you mean by "是……的". When you say "是……的", do you mean to imply that "是" MUST be used in a sentence that employs the "是……的" sentence pattern? If so, then you are really restricting the range of use in which "的" can be used. While "是……的" is used to emphasize (or provide a 肯定的语气), "……的" is used in the same manner (if you have any doubts about this, refer to the dictionary entries I've pasted below). So in a nutshell, they are functionally the same. Now, one could perhaps argue that "是……的" does a slightly better job of emphasizing than "……的", but that would be beyond the scope of this post. For all intents and purposes, I think it's best that we assume that the aforementioned "是……的" and "……的" are interchangeable.

 

In fact, the definitions and examples provided by the below dictionary entries for "的" reinforce the idea that "是……的" and "……的" are interchangeable. Let us examine these entries, see which ones correspond to the "的" in "这篇文章还蛮有意思的", and see how "是……的" can relate to "……的".

 

I'll start with entries from《现代汉语规范词典》. All the entries for "的" in said dictionary are pasted below.

 

 

 

As you can see by the various definitions and examples, definition #3 aptly describes the kind of "的" that we are dealing with in "这篇文章还蛮有意思的", and it is the only definition that does so (see my note below with regards to definition #4). Therefore, the "的" in "这篇文章蛮有意思的" corresponds best to definition #3. Next, note how definition #3 includes one example that employs "是……的", and one example that employs "……的", which hints at the possibility that this kind of "的" may be optionally used with the character "是". Also, considering that no other definition aptly describes the function of "的" in "是……的" (again, see my note below), I think it's fair to assume for now that the "的" in "是……的" corresponds to definition #3 as well. So, in conclusion, knowing that "是……的" and "……的" both employ the same kind of "的", and that they both generally serve to emphasize, "是……的" and "……的" are interchangeable.

 

Note: BE CAREFUL WITH DEFINITION #4. Although definition #4 describes a kind of "的" that appears in a "（是）……的" construction, this kind of "的" MUST appear between a 动词 (which, speaking in terms of 句法成分, I think would necessarily have to be a 述语) and a 宾语. This implies a kind of "的" that we are NOT considering right now, as it cannot apply to our sentence "这篇文章还蛮有意思的". Additionally, notice how you can have a "（是）……的" sentence pattern that uses definition #4 for "的". Again, this kind of "（是）……的" pattern is totally different from the one we've been talking about, and is outside the scope of this discussion.

 

Next, let's look at 《汉语大词典》：

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Evidently, only definition #12 fits with the "的" that we have in "这篇文章还蛮有意思的", and what it describes seems to be a subset of what is described by definition #3 in《现代汉语规范词典》。Notice how this definition has corresponding examples for both "是……的" and "……的", which, by using the same reasoning as above, further reinforce the idea that "是" is optional in "是……的". Also notice how definition #8 corresponds to definition #4 from 《现代汉语规范词典》。

 

Lastly, let's look at 《现代汉语词典》：

 

 

 

The "的" in "这篇文章还蛮有意思的" corresponds only to definition #4. Also note how a similar thing is going on here as with 《现代汉语规范词典》；《现代汉语规范词典》的 definition #3 and definition #4 correspond respectively to 《现代汉语词典》的 definition #4 and definition #3. Sadly, definition #4 in 《现代汉语词典》doesn't include an example that uses "是". But the parallels between this dictionary's entry and the other entries above can still be readily seen.

[骏马的丕沿?]

On 5/21/2023 at 5:15 AM, realmayo said:

For sure, I agree that in this sentence it is modal / a 语气词

 

Hmmm... thanks for bringing this up. Is the "的" in "这篇文章还蛮有意思的" indeed a 语气词? I'm confused because both 《现代汉语词典》 and 《现代汉语规范词典》 seem to imply that "的" can only function as a 助词。But, according to my notes, "的" can function as one of three things: 动态助词、结构助词（动态助词 and 结构助词 are two different types of 助词）、or 语气词. I'm pretty sure the "的" in "这篇文章还蛮有意思的" is a 语气词, but why isn't it marked as 语气词 in either one of the dictionaries? This is the first time I come across this kind of discrepancy. (For the record, there has been some disagreement in the sphere of Chinese grammar with regards to 语气词 and 语气助词 and how they should be categorized, which, from what I know to be true, are two totally distinct categories of 虚词. 语气助词 includes "所", "给", "连", and "被", while 语气词 includes characters like 的、了、呢、着呢、也罢、罢了、嘛、呗、吗、么、吧、啊. ) If someone more well-versed than me in modern Chinese grammar could help me out here, I'd appreciate it.

 

-------------------------------

 

In the process of writing this comment, I think I realized what's going on. I now remember learning that, in the recent past, modern Chinese grammar had always split 虚词 into 三大类 instead of 四大类，and those 三大类 are 介词、连词、and 助词。Note that they do NOT include 语气词。语气词 is actually a recent addition that has been made to the three main categories of 虚词，and is distinct from 语气助词。Some re-shuffling of 虚词 and re-categorization was made during this process.

 

So, in summary, as of right now, the four main categories of 虚词 are 介词、连词、助词、and 语气词. Under 助词, there are four 虚词 subcategories, namely 结构助词、动态助词、比况助词、and 语气助词。And as of right now, the "的" that we had been talking about is a 语气词, not a 助词. It seems to me that the dictionaries I referenced are just not updated with regards to classification of 虚词。

 

If I'm on the wrong track, someone please correct me. Thanks!

[Guest realmayo]

On 5/21/2023 at 6:53 PM, 骏马的丕沿? said:

When I say "的 is used to emphasize", I don't mean that some user of Chinese is expected to vividly think to him-/her-self that this kind of "的" is emphasizing something upon reading some sentence.

 

This suggests to me that "emphasise" is the wrong choice of English word in this instance, and that it is capable of misleading people.

 

Sometimes I actually wonder if the 的 that we're talking about functions more as a way to delineate or mark out that we are in a topic+comment sentence.

 

For instance:

 

- tommorow it's going to rain: is just an observation.

- tomorrow, it's going to rain: that pause helps isolate or delineate "tomorrow" a tiny bit.

- as for tomorrow, it's going to be a rainy day: very clearly delineated. Topic + comment.

An online example of the 是 的 goes like this:

• A: 昨天 我 去 杭州 了。Zuótiān wǒ qù Hángzhōu le.
• B: 你 是 怎么 去 的 ？Nǐ shì zěnme qù de?
• A: 我 是 坐 火车 去 的 。Wǒ shì zuò huǒchē qù de.

Personally I think the 是 的 in the question and the reply are there in order to reinforce the topic+comment element: I'm not asking you in general how do you go, but how did you go this time, or rather, as for the topic of your going to Hangzhou, how was it? My going to hangzhou, it was ....

 

 

[骏马的丕沿?]

I'm not following. What exactly makes you think that I'm misusing the word "emphasize"?

 

On 5/21/2023 at 1:15 PM, realmayo said:

I think the 是 的 in the question and the reply are there in order to reinforce the topic+comment element: I'm not asking you in general how do you go, but how did you go this time

 

Interesting - I can see that. If one replies "你（是）怎么去的" to "我昨天去杭州", then yes, that definitely seems to be asking specifically how that person went to 杭州 yesterday. But I would say that this itself is just a specific way of "emphasizing". When I say "你（是）怎么去的", I am using "的" and possibly "是" to add additional "semantic weight" to "怎么去", and I end up asking not "怎么去", but rather "昨天去杭州怎么去" (this is my interpretation, anyway). This adding of additional "semantic weight" highlights or draws or attention to "怎么去", which, in effect, can be seen as an act of emphasis. So your explanation doesn't seem to contradict what I explained earlier or what is explained in the dictionaries I referenced. I took a purely (Western) grammatical/syntactical (?) approach, while topic and comment seem to be... from beyond grammar? I don't specialize in linguistics, so I don't know. I didn't formally learn about topic and comment when I learned English grammar in middle school, and also didn't really encounter it when I learned Chinese (Western) grammar.

 

But let's go back to the original sentence: "这篇文章还（是）蛮有意思的". What does the usage of "（是）……的" here have to do with topic and comment? This sentence seems very different from "你（是）怎么去的？".