骏马的丕沿? Posted May 14, 2023 at 04:19 AM Report Posted May 14, 2023 at 04:19 AM I have observed that I personally sometimes 有意无意地 avoid using certain one-character words, and will instead opt for two-character words that have similar meaning. I have seen many other foreigners like me (who are still working on their vocabulary) do the same thing, and, from what I recall, it's known to be a common thing among non-native users of Chinese. This actually makes a lot of sense, but I won't get into why right now. But here's the thing: 華文惜字如金, and if you can afford to express just enough meaning for the current situation with just a single character, then that would be best, as it makes your language more concise and less superfluous. (Many times, those two-character words contain too much information, and bog down your sentence overall. So, in these cases, it's better to use a one-character word instead of a two-character word. You'll see what I mean below.) Here are some REALLY great examples that personally apply to me (and that I suspect apply to many other foreigners) (I've provided example sentences to show how they can be used. I've added some annotations as well.): 化 例:冰塊都化了。 I just heard this sentence today, and it's probably one of the best examples in this list. In the past, I would always say “融化” to convey the meaning of “融化”, but then I found out that, in certain contexts, I could just say “化”. Now, notice how "融" is unnecessary, and that “化” by itself completely conveys what is happening to the ice. Notice how "冰塊都化了" 比 “冰塊都融化了” 更簡練。For some reason, though, my brain had never thought to ever use “化” in place “融化”. I think it has to do with the fact that 漢語是字本位的, and that a lot of 外國人 just don't fully understand that 漢語是骨子裡的字本位語言。[另外,please note that I am not saying that “冰塊都化了” is always better than “冰塊都融化了”。At the end of the day, it's important to use context in order to determine which words should be used.] 上 例:鹿:“這裡有永動食物機,大家上啊!”(這是對某條視頻的機智評論。視頻鏈接如下:https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OM1RoTxarKo) Notice how "上" is the only word after "大家", besides the 語氣詞 "啊"。 At least in the past, I personally would have been more inclined to say something like “過來吃飯”、“過來”、or maybe even “上來” instead of just “上”。Seeing the very simple and sufficient phrase "大家上啊" was eye-opening to me. 直 例:幼年看眼,壯年看嘴,老年看腿。壯年看嘴,你會發現,有的人說話很直,也愛炫耀。這些人估計還沒有經歷社會的毒打。 This is another good one. I would have said something like 直率、直白等 instead of just 直。Alas, 只用 “直” 即可;加個 “率” would have been 冗餘的,也 would have 破壞句子的簡練。 根 例:他的母親為緬甸人,父親為緬甸後裔第一代,在美國生長。由於他跟生死於緬甸的先輩的距離很近,而且他對緬甸民俗與語言半熟,可以說,他的根在緬甸。 Again, with this one, I would have said something like 根源 or 本源。But “根” alone suffices. 盲 例:我沒有想到文盲能盲到這個程度。 其實,“盲” 一般不能單獨使用。可是在這個句子裡面,因為提到了含有盲字的兩字詞,後面單獨使用 “盲” 也不成問題。我不太確定為什麼是這樣。其原因估計跟語言學有關,可我也不是什麼內行。 悟 例:人到中年才能悟明白的真理……。 枯 例:金華市一座廣場,這一小片草已開始枯了。 Many 外國人 would say 枯萎 instead of just 枯。 合 例:這個人太嘎,跟誰也合不來。 I probably would have used something like 相處 or instead of 合. 平 例:這條水泥造的路很平。 I would have said 平板 or something like that. 平 by itself, however, seems to be the best choice. 盜 例:鎖上你車的門,要不會有人來盜你的車! 進 例:沒登錄的網民無法直接進這個板塊。 Uses 進 instead of 進入 消 例:那大漢連續喊話喊了半個鐘頭了,怒氣卻還沒消。 消解、消散、消弭、消除等兩字詞詞都是 words that have meanings that are more or less similar to that of just 消。 從 例:你的吩咐,他不肯從。 Here are some other examples: 糟 例:這事全部搞得很糟,可惜! 治 例:這藥能治你的病。 保 例:料敵從寬,大大增加對軍事軍備的投資,讓軍人繼續不停地演練,以保萬全。 補 例:大家好,咱們今天來補一個坑啊,就是前兩天我們在說…… 準 例:而中国人也不是人人都考虑汉字意义的,很多时候也不一定是考虑了意思,只是在不认识的基础上,从偏旁勉强推测出一些意思,不一定准,只能说不认识的字读一半,依靠偏旁猜意思这些才艺,是我们的种族技能,大部分日本人确实没有。 岸 例:苦海無邊,回頭是岸。 脹 例:我的眼角好脹。 漲 例:房價在漲。 1 1 Quote
anonymoose Posted May 14, 2023 at 11:25 AM Report Posted May 14, 2023 at 11:25 AM I think this is mainly a difference between standard and colloquial Chinese. Most teaching materials will teach predominantly the standard language so naturally this is what learners will use first. To learn the colloquialisms, you really have to pay attention to how Chinese is used in practice, and this requires a proactive effort on the part of the learner, which clearly you have been making. I didn't read through all of your examples, but I note some of them are common set phrases though, for example 合得来/合不来 is a frequently used word. 4 Quote
骏马的丕沿? Posted May 20, 2023 at 07:35 PM Author Report Posted May 20, 2023 at 07:35 PM What do you mean by "colloquial"? Do you mean 普通話口語、俚語(即方言口語)、網絡用語、慣用語, or something else?In any case, I beg to differ. I think a lot of this boils down to the difference between 成詞語素 and 不成詞語素, which I don't think inherently marks formality/colloquial-ness. For example, consider the word "枯萎"。You could then ask the following: could "枯" alone be considered a word? Could "萎" alone be considered a word? From the sentence "這一小片草已開始枯了" (from above), assuming that this sentence is "correct"/acceptable, we know that "枯" is a word in this sentence. So in conclusion, in the word "枯萎", we know that "枯" is a 成詞語素, and not a 不成詞語素。But what about "萎"?Could "萎" alone be considered a word? Assuming we're talking about "萎" in the sense of "植物的乾枯" and not "衰落",then no, I don't think "萎" can be considered a word. So in conclusion, in the word "枯萎","萎" is a 不成詞語素。 Now, tying all of this back to the original post, someone who doesn't know that "枯" can stand as a word by itself and that it basically means the same thing as "枯萎" wouldn't say something like "這一小片草已開始枯了", and would instead say "這一小片草已開始枯萎了". Neither sentence is more colloquial than the other, though. Quote
骏马的丕沿? Posted May 21, 2023 at 04:06 AM Author Report Posted May 21, 2023 at 04:06 AM Here's another example to prove my point: Consider the following definition for "錐度": 圆锥形物体大、小两个截面直径的差与两个截面间距离的比 Here, "比" is used instead of "比例" or "對比". Given that this came from an authoritative dictionary, I wouldn't say that anything about the above phrase could be considered "colloquial". Quote
becky82 Posted May 22, 2023 at 12:16 AM Report Posted May 22, 2023 at 12:16 AM I think this boils down to Chinese words sometimes having both one- and two-character versions. More advanced students need to be aware of this when studying vocabulary (at an advanced level, it's part of what it means to "know" a word), and when listening; they also need to be able to utilize both versions to make their speech and writing sound more fluent. I think intermediate students tend to prefer using the full word; maybe it's good for practicing. One of my early encounters with this was something like ……很陡 (when we were climbing 香山), and I was completely lost, but eventually realized 陡 is basically just 陡峭. I'd be careful with idioms, because sometimes isolated characters only make sense within a fixed idiom. Also, I'd be careful with dictionary definitions, as they can use abbreviations which, outside of a dictionary, I don't believe are considered grammatical. I recall using 使[adjective] with my Chinese teacher after seeing it in a dictionary (in the dictionary it means something like "to cause sth. to become [adjective]", but they omit the "sth."), and she was thoroughly confused. E.g. 使平定 and 使平 in 现代汉语词典: Oh and, there's these kind of things in maths too: 1和2的和是多少?3和4的积是多少? 1 Quote
markhavemann Posted May 22, 2023 at 01:52 AM Report Posted May 22, 2023 at 01:52 AM On 5/14/2023 at 12:19 PM, 骏马的丕沿? said: But here's the thing: 華文惜字如金, and if you can afford to express just enough meaning for the current situation with just a single character, then that would be best, as it makes your language more concise and less superfluous. I'm not sure if this is entirely the case. Correct me if I'm wrong but there's also the fact that rhythm/symmetry/balance play a part in choosing a word with one or two syllables. I can't remember the exact "rule" but it is sort of summarised by: Chinese likes to pair single syllable words with other single syllable words, and a two syllable words with other two syllable words, so that things sound balanced. To take your ice-cream example (while ignoring grammar and whether or not anyone would actually say this or not), because 化 is paired with 都, you will tend to keep them as both single syllables, while if you didn't have 都 then the sentence would sound unbalanced to say 冰棍化了, given that 冰棍 is two syllables, so then there would be a pull towards 冰棍融化了。 I can't remember where this was mentioned in my textbooks but I might try to find it at some point. 2 Quote
骏马的丕沿? Posted May 22, 2023 at 04:49 PM Author Report Posted May 22, 2023 at 04:49 PM On 5/21/2023 at 8:52 PM, markhavemann said: I'm not sure if this is entirely the case. Correct me if I'm wrong but there's also the fact that rhythm/symmetry/balance play a part in choosing a word with one or two syllables. I can't remember the exact "rule" but it is sort of summarised by: Chinese likes to pair single syllable words with other single syllable words, and a two syllable words with other two syllable words, so that things sound balanced. Yes, I forgot about this. This is also important. I believe this kind of "sound harmony", if you will, is generally called 音韻. On 5/21/2023 at 8:52 PM, markhavemann said: To take your ice-cream example (while ignoring grammar and whether or not anyone would actually say this or not), because 化 is paired with 都, you will tend to keep them as both single syllables, while if you didn't have 都 then the sentence would sound unbalanced to say 冰棍化了, given that 冰棍 is two syllables, so then there would be a pull towards 冰棍融化了。 Yeah, I agree. 1 Quote
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