Improving sentence structure

[matteo]

hey all, 

 

as an intermediate learner, I usually manage to express what I mean relatively effectively,  but my use of grammar and sentence structure is definitely sub-par. 

What I have been doing to improve:

- reading as much as I can in my free time

- studying grammar (I'm using a textbook, and I'm following this online course on Edex - link here - which I find great)

- I listen to podcasts, and often practice repeating the sentences after the speaker to encourage good pronunciation/sentence patterns

 

however, none of these seem to be "sticking" really well. During conversation and in the heat of the moment, I tend to revert back to messy/wrong sentences and the grammar goes out the window. 

I find especially frustrating going through all these grammar drills, just for my brain to forget about them almost instantly. 

This is much less of a challenge in passive activities such as reading and listening, where I feel I can usually make sense of complex sentences and know grammar patterns.

 

Any suggestion to overcome this hurdle?

 

[sanchuan]

Poor spoken Chinese may be due to the fact you're translating into Chinese, rather than speaking in it - not a trivial issue to overcome.

 

Ironically, translation exercises might help, especially those designed to go over the same piece in multiple and increasingly native-sounding iterations.

 

The goal should be to train you to move away from seeing a one-to-one correspondence between Chinese and English (or whatever other language you're working with). That goes for words, sentence structures and everything else. 

 

Passive reading & listening will expose you to plenty of well-formed Chinese, but in no way will it help address your problem on its own, much like learning to recognise characters won't on its own teach you how to write them by hand.

 

So my recommendation would be to engage in active exercises aimed at 'breaking up' how it is that your brain has learnt to handle translation. One way is via iterative translation exercises, as I mentioned above. Another would be to memorise larger and larger chunks of native texts (scripts, longer sentences, etc) to help you skip over the whole mental-translation stage as much as you can.

[TheBigZaboon]

My (probably not so) humble recommendation:

 

BLCU 汉语强化教程 (English title : An Intensive Chinese Course ), especially the four volumes and 16 CDs of the words and phrases (词汇课本)subset. It will obviously require a leap of faith to take my word for it and pony up that kind of money, so I recommend you look around for a school or university language lab that has it and give it the once over before you buy.

 

The Words and Phrases subset of the course has 16 lessons per volume, and about 15 to 20 recorded conversations per lesson in an exercise called 听后回答. The conversations are not the epitome of interesting cocktail conversation, but claim to provide you with the appropriate and correct usage of 5000 words in everyday situations. It has a bit of a college student/academic bias, but so far, I haven't found that to be a drawback. This exercise is the only part of this textbook (as a subset of the course, e.g., Main Textbook, Listening, etc.) that is recorded, but is it still quite a bit of material. Other portions of the course have their own recordings.

 

Repetition and shadowing will go a long way towards making your understanding and responses automatic, but this idea, and its associated methodologies, are not in vogue today. However, my experience is based on the "drill and kill" paradigm used by the military. It has always been good for me.

 

It would be nice if somebody here who has used this set of textbooks at BLCU could chime in with opinions based on experience other than mine.

 

Just a suggestion...

 

TBZ

[OneEye]

On 8/10/2023 at 6:27 PM, TheBigZaboon said:

Repetition and shadowing will go a long way towards making your understanding and responses automatic, but this idea and methodology is not in vogue today. However, my experience is based on the "drill and kill" paradigm used by the military. It has always been good for me.

 

 

This is the way. It's a shame that these methods aren't in vogue, because they're extremely effective.

[TaxiAsh]

Same problem for me. I would like to be speaking to more people (especially now as I live in a Chinese speaking environment), however covnversations still seem hard to come by. I mainly get to practice with people in the pub! 

I try and use new structures a few times and try and get them in my head, however, like the OP, in the heat of the moment I often revert back to structures that I know and am comfortable with. 

I also like the shadowing idea. If I'm listening to natural speaking and I hear a sentence that I can use (and alter a couple of words) I'll write it down and try and slip it into conversation a few times. 

The problem with reverting to known structures is that if you are having a relatively long conversation with someone, (I find) that I notice I am using a structure way too much... and learning alternatives to ones you already know is perhaps an idea.

[Moshen]

Quote

I try and use new structures a few times and try and get them in my head,

 

I'm a little confused by this discussion.  Is the issue (1)Using wrong or unnatural Chinese sentence structures or (2)Using insufficient sentence structure variety?

 

Worrying about #1 I understand.  Worrying about #2 I don't understand. 

 

In English I am a well-published writer who uses a sophisticated writing style when it's for publication.  But when speaking I'm quite sure I don't use very many different kinds of sentence structures.   What's the point of trying to use a lot of different sentence structures?  The point is just to get your message across - hopefully without making mistakes.

 

[TaxiAsh]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:23 PM, Moshen said:

Worrying about #2 I don't understand. 

Basically, it's using the same structures over and over.

Basically, I find it annoying when I can't think of a more varied way of expressing myself.

Basically, I find it probably annoys the listener, and annoys me as a speaker that I am not capable of using different structures, depending on how strong the following part might be.

Basically, that's it. 

 

Does this explain it further?

 

Basically, in long dialogue, I find myself using too few structures.

[sanchuan]

On 8/10/2023 at 3:23 PM, Moshen said:

What's the point of trying to use a lot of different sentence structures? 

The point is to make an effort to widen one's active vocabulary and to try and use correct syntax. If, say, you only know 1500 words and never use the 把 'structure', it makes sense to want to make more natural word choices and to try to use more 把 phrases when appropriate, even if the alternative is understandable enough.

 

For an intermediate learner of a foreign language, as in the case at hand, this is a sensible strategy  and has little to do with the kind of register native speakers default on in normal conversation.

 

When it comes to language disfluencies, I believe that "wrong", "unnatural" and "insufficiently varied" aren't easily distinguishable categories, but rather lie on a continuum. So it's important, especially for (intermediate) learners, to work on any and all of them - if they want or need to improve, that is. 

[Moshen]

Quote

The point is to make an effort to widen one's active vocabulary and to try and use correct syntax.

 

I agree that those are good goals.  However, you can accomplish those two things while never worrying about varying your sentence structure.

 

I do pay attention to sentence structure some of the time when I write for publication.  That's because I want to write artfully.  But never when speaking.  Learning to speak so you sound natural and idiomatic doesn't, from what I can see, require different sentence structures.  Now if you struggle to say certain things because you don't know enough sentence structures, that is a different story.

 

Trying to speak artfully is something that few people have a need for, in any language.  I was just wondering why TaxiAsh felt he was boring people for not doing this.  That's extremely unlikely, in my opinion.  As long as you're speaking reasonably correctly, people normally focus on what you're saying, not the boringness or inventiveness with which you say it.

[TheBigZaboon]

Topic is veering off into places I can't add value to, but I would like to add something to my previous recommendation for those who are interested in that line of thinking.

 

The BLCU materials I recommended may be too extensive (not to mention too expensive) for most people to consider, so I think maybe falling back on an old standard might just be possible... The DeFrancis series of textbooks, not the readers, but the textbooks that were the introduction to each level are available, both as reprints and secondhand.

 

If my memory serves me better than it has recently, there are extensive drills, especially lots of sentence buildups, included in each chapter. Even if you feel you've advanced beyond the stipulated level of the text, a review and some intensive practice will never hurt. Remember, it's motor response, brain to mouth, not intellectual response you're practicing.

 

The audio is floating around for free, and someone among your Chinese study circle, or a local library, should have a book that you can check out before you spend any real money...

 

Just an added suggestion...

 

TBZ

[Guest realmayo]

On 8/10/2023 at 11:31 PM, TaxiAsh said:

Basically, in long dialogue, I find myself using too few structures.

 

Makes sense to me: it's a bit like 'if all you have is a hammer then every problem is a nail': if you only have a limited toolkit then you will still be able to fix most problems, but half of your solutions will take too long, or be overcomplicated, or look weird to professionals. And it's not enough to just add a tool to the toolkit, you've got to have used it plenty of times before it becomes something you're confident reaching for under pressure.

 

On 8/11/2023 at 12:38 AM, Moshen said:

Learning to speak so you sound natural and idiomatic doesn't, from what I can see, require different sentence structures.

 

"I'm not sure" and "I'm unsure" are different sentence structures but you would not sound natural and idiomatic if you only ever used one of them and not the other.

 

Or: if you never learned 把字句 as mentioned above, you would always be saying sentences like 翻译这本书成英文

[TheBigZaboon]

Me again... Seems I left out two more relatively easily-accessible courses with extensive and everyday-useful, adequately drilled material.

 

The first is well known with lots of discussions on this forum, so there isn't much for me to say: the FSI course... All of the basic and intermediate level modules provide extensive drills. The modules with drills are all very practical in keeping with the purpose of the course: allow diplomats and staff to function in a Chinese speaking environment. Adequate steps are taken for linguistic differences in both the PRC and on Taiwan.

 

The second set of materials is produced by Cornelius Kubler, who was also involved in producing the FSI course. The format is largely the same, but the basic premise is "civilianized," making it a little less functionally oriented. Kubler has at least two complete, multi volume courses, published by Tuttle, if I'm not mistaken. The one you want is the bigger, more extensive of the two. It is so big, in fact, that significant portions of the material are provided only on disc, and not printed in the textbook itself. This course, as with the FSI course, takes into account the differences in usage in the PRC, and on Taiwan. And drilling is an important part of the methodology.

 

I think this is enough from me. It's time for others to pitch in with their experiences using this kind of material to overcome the problems outlined in the original posts. The course material I've suggested pretty much covers everyone's situation, including cost considerations, and except for the FSI course, will allow a simultaneous path to reading, if desired.

 

Over and out...

 

TBZ

[wibr]

Thanks for the recommendations, Tuttle provides the content of the CDs on their website, worth checking out.

[TheBigZaboon]

I reluctantly withdraw my recommendation of the BLCU set of material unless you are reasonably advanced in  your journey. I didn't notice, but there is no romanization and only an English glossary at the beginning of each lesson. I think I would be misleading too many people into buying something they're not ready for.

 

I will limit my recommendations to DeFrancis, FSI, and Kubler, probably with a preference for Kubler, because he is newer by a generation, and extremely well organized, with everything provided in one well-integrated set of materials.

 

Sorry for the inconvenience...

 

TBZ 

[abcdefg]

On 8/9/2023 at 7:14 PM, matteo said:

however, none of these seem to be "sticking" really well.

 

For me, the key to having proper, or at least understandable, sentence structure "stick" was writing lots of short compositions in Chinese. I could have read explanations and studied examples until Hell froze over and it would not have led to actual improvement. Being forced to produce decent Chinese sentences, by contrast, had rapid and tangible benefit. 

 

Some of these short (half a page, typed, more or less) compositions I asked my teachers to correct. Some I posted to Lang-8. 

 

Quote

 

What I have been doing to improve:

- reading as much as I can in my free time

- studying grammar (I'm using a textbook...

 

 

Strategies such as the ones you mentioned might bear fruit over the course of years, not weeks. Need to focus on active production of understandable content. 

[Jan Finster]

Steve Kaufman recommends focussing on sentence patterns early on (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjYXMFVOTmk&t=127s&ab_channel=SteveKaufmann-lingosteve&t=2m5s)

 

There are acutally books on Chinese sentence patterns, but as a starter here are some:

因为...所以... (yīnwèi... suǒyǐ...) - Because... so...
不只是...还... (bù zhǐshì... hái...) - Not only... but also...
既然...就... (jìrán... jiù...) - Since... then...
虽然...但是... (suīrán... dànshì...) - Although... but...
无论...都... (wúlùn... dōu...) - Regardless of... all...
一方面...另一方面... (yī fāngmiàn... lìng yī fāngmiàn...) - On one hand... on the other hand...
要么...要么... (yàome... yàome...) - Either... or...
不管...都... (bùguǎn... dōu...) - No matter... all...
除了...还... (chúle... hái...) - Besides... also...
越来越... (yuè lái yuè...) - More and more...
不仅...而且... (bù jǐn... érqiě...) - Not only... but also...
从...到... (cóng... dào...) - From... to...
在...的时候... (zài... de shíhòu...) - When... (happens),...
如果...的话... (rúguǒ... de huà...) - If... then...
有的...有的... (yǒu de... yǒu de...) - Some... some...
要是...就好了 (yào shì... jiù hǎole) - If only... (wishful thinking)
不是...而是... (bùshì... érshì...) - Not... but...
对...来说... (duì... láishuō...) - For... (speaking of),...
除非...否则... (chúfēi... fǒuzé...) - Unless... otherwise...
一...就... (yī... jiù...) - As soon as... then...
而是... (érshì...) - Instead...
是...的 (shì... de) - Emphasizing a certain aspect of the action/event.
又...又... (yòu... yòu...) - Both... and...
就是说... (jiùshì shuō...) - That is to say...
也许...也可能... (yěxǔ... yě kěnéng...) - Perhaps... possibly...
不管怎么样... (bùguǎn zěnmeyàng...) - No matter what...
连...都... (lián... dōu...) - Even... (emphasizing surprising fact)
由于...所以... (yóuyú... suǒyǐ...) - Due to... so...
对于...来说... (duìyú... láishuō...) - As for... (speaking of)...
正如...一样... (zhèngrú... yīyàng...) - Just like... (similarity).

[suMMit]

On 8/10/2023 at 8:14 AM, matteo said:

as an intermediate learner, I usually manage to express what I mean relatively effectively,  but my use of grammar and sentence structure is definitely sub-par. 

This hits pretty close to home. I don't think my grammar is terrible, but I do think its my weakest link when speaking and slows me down.

 

On 8/11/2023 at 3:42 PM, TheBigZaboon said:

The second set of materials is produced by Cornelius Kubler, who was also involved in producing the FSI course.

I actually have the Intermediate level of this course and speaking practice book (with all the audio drills). I bought it years ago and never ended up doing it because it's all in pinyin and I wanted to get away from pinyin. Based on this thread, I dug it out and started it last night, why not since I already have it?.  I will try to post back here later on how it went.

 

On 8/17/2023 at 1:25 AM, Jan Finster said:

Steve Kaufman recommends focussing on sentence patterns early on

Last week bought a book on Taobao from Sinolingua that sounds similar to the one he mentions. Going to put it to work.

 

On 8/17/2023 at 1:25 AM, Jan Finster said:

无论...都... (wúlùn... dōu...) - Regardless of... all...
一方面...另一方面... (yī fāngmiàn... lìng yī fāngmiàn...) - On one hand... on the other hand...
要么...要么... (yàome... yàome...) - Either... or...
不管...都... (bùguǎn... dōu...) - No matter... all...
除了...还... (chúle... hái...) - Besides... also...

I feel like I will often start the first part , say 不管 then get muddled up in the corresponding question word. Or come out with 除了。。。then hesitate deciding on 还 / 也 / 都。。。

 

When writing, this is not an issue.

 

[TheBigZaboon]

I don't think there's any problems using pinyin in your study of Chinese. Remember, even Chinese use it to some extent.

 

If you read the reviews and credits on the back of the Intermediate textbook you will notice several famous teachers of Chinese praise the book (system) for separating learning to speak (pinyin) and learning to read and write (characters) into separate streams, thus allowing Westerners to free up their progress from the slow, strangling tyranny of having to study spoken Chinese simultaneously with characters. There's an Intermediate Written Chinese available by Kubler that uses the same sentences and vocabulary to teach you to read and write. Perhaps you should read the English introduction and instructions to the Intermediate Spoken course before you go any further. And if you have the Basic Spoken course, maybe it's a good idea to do the drills in that one, too.

 

And, by all means, DON'T try studying the written and spoken versions simultaneously. That goes against the underlying philosophy, and destroys the entire methodology of the course. Both DeFrancis and Kubler designed a delay between studying the identical sentence structure and characters in spoken and written forms into their textbooks. If you ignore this you negate the value of the systems. Study them separately, as recommended. Do the damn drills... 

 

The second book that you mentioned is one of a number of excellent Chinese GRAMMAR books with good explanations and copious example sentences. But, alas, I've never been able to find any audio. And as each pattern is independently introduced, explained, and provided with examples, there's no context and usage advice provided beyond that. No audio and no contextual usage advice means no systematic drilling to get what's in your head flowing out of your mouth in context. And that's why you're participating in this thread in the first place. If you can get someone to record the examples, more power to you, but practicing patterns separate from context is a task for people who already have a considerable amount of verbal dexterity. Doing so before you've mastered the problems you've complained about in the posts in this thread seems to me to be self-defeating.

 

Just my (not so) humble opinion (based on painful experience)...

 

 

TBZ

[suMMit]

On 8/17/2023 at 10:25 AM, TheBigZaboon said:

And, by all means, DON'T try studying the written and spoken versions simultaneously

Yeah, I’m just going to do the Intermediate spoken book and the practice book with the drills.I don’t mind the pinyin for that. 

 

On 8/17/2023 at 10:25 AM, TheBigZaboon said:

And if you have the Basic Spoken course, maybe it's a good idea to do the drills in that one, too.

I already did the Kubler Basic spoken and Practice Books years ago. I enjoyed it and i think it helped me a lot. I just didn’t continue with the intermediate because I wanted to move onto characters. 

 

On 8/17/2023 at 10:25 AM, TheBigZaboon said:

spoken and written forms into their textbooks. If you ignore this you negate the value of the systems. Study them separately, as recommended. Do the damn drills... 

If I even do his written intermediate book, it will be later. I am actually a drill LOVER.

 

On 8/17/2023 at 10:25 AM, TheBigZaboon said:

but practicing patterns separate from context is a task for people who already have a considerable amount of verbal dexterity.

I would only use this book for structures I’ve already learned in context, such as  不管。。都, which I’ve learned in context many times already. I may use the book as a guide for practicing my own sentences on structures I already feel I have a good handle on but am too slow/hesitant with when speaking.

 

I haven’t previewed what I’ll encounter in the kubler int book, looking forward to see which structures come up. I’ve put in a several hours already and enjoying it so far.

[TheBigZaboon]

Good man!!!

 

If you like drills and drilling, then don't forget the FSI materials.  Repeated and overlapping materials really are just more and varied opportunities for additional practice. And don't neglect the supplementary materials surrounding the central textbooks (for example, Customs Surrounding Marriage, Birth, and Death... ) The included repetition in the texts is really just another form of drills. And the cultural info, some of it obviously dated, will never hurt you.

 

I haven't looked, or listened to my Kubler stuff in a while, so I was dumbfounded that the downloaded files for the text in their compressed state amount to more than SIX Gigabytes. Originally, I used the discs included in the textbook, so the size of the files was never an issue. But my Wi-Fi has a sudden case of indigestion.

 

I may have more to say in a few days, when I've started to play with my six gigs of new toys...

 

TBZ