xia4yu3 versus yu3

[piano0011]

Hello!

 

From my understanding, yu3 is a noun and xia4yu3 is a verb correct? Would I say something like and I prefer to type in pinyin rather than chinese characters but you guys can write back in characters because I can check the dictionary..

 

mingtian you yu = mingtian you xia yu

 

or should i say... mingtian xia yu le.... can you add you3 with xia4yu3?

[Demonic_Duck]

下 is the verb, 雨 is the object. They can be used together or split up, e.g. 不下雨了、下完雨了、雨不下了 all mean "it's stopped raining" but with different wording/word order.

 

On 1/3/2024 at 9:19 AM, piano0011 said:

mingtian you yu = mingtian you xia yu

or should i say... mingtian xia yu le.... can you add you3 with xia4yu3?

 

You can say 明天下雨 ✅, 明天要下雨 ✅, or 明天有雨 ✅, but not 明天有下雨 ❌ (you could say 昨天有下雨, but in this case 有 expresses something like past tense, not existence. Also this usage of 有 is rare outside Taiwanese Mandarin).

[piano0011]

thanks.... i guess it would be better to use either you3 yu3 or xia4 yu3.... got it but i guess you3 yu3 is a noun right? and xia4yu3 is a verb object? What does this mean 雨不下了... what is the meaning of bu4xia4?

[Lu]

下雨 is, as you say, verb + object.

有雨 is basically the same grammatical construction, verb (有) + object (雨).

 

雨 by itself is a noun.

[piano0011]

So, would I say... mingtian meiyou xia yu or mintian meiyou yu?

 

So, I can either say:

 

1) mingtian you xia yu

2) mintgian you yu

3) mingtian mei you xia yu

4) mingtian mei you yu

 

Can I also say the following?

 

1) hen duo xia yu

2) hen duo yu

[Demonic_Duck]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:43 AM, piano0011 said:

So, would I say... mingtian meiyou xia yu or mintian meiyou yu?

 

下 and 有 are both verbs (with 没有 being the negated form of 有), so you can't use both together unless 有 is acting as an auxiliary verb. 有 is similar to English "have" in this way:

• I make friends ✅
• I have friends ✅ ("have" as full verb, used alone)
• I have made friends ✅ ("have" as auxiliary verb, used along with the full verb "make", inflected as "made")
• I have make friends ❌ ("have" as full verb, can't be combined with the full verb "make")

It's not exactly identical, as in English the verb forms also change, but hopefully you get the point.

 

Similarly to English, you don't use auxiliary "have" to talk about the future (though the exact function is slightly different):

• I have made friends ✅
• I have made friends tomorrow ❌

Going back to your Chinese example:

• 明天下雨 ✅ (下 as only verb)
• 明天有雨 ✅ (有 as full verb)
• 明天没有雨 ✅ (有 as full verb)
• 明天有下雨 ❌ (can't use auxiliary 有 to talk about future)
• 明天没有下雨 ❌ (can't use auxiliary 有 to talk about future)

However:

• 昨天没有下雨 ✅ (auxiliary 有 to talk about past)
• 昨天有下雨 ✅⚠️ (auxiliary 有 to talk about past; however, the affirmative form of this is uncommon outside Taiwanese Mandarin; standard mainland Chinese would typically use 昨天下雨了 instead)

To negate the verb 下, you use 不, not 没 (没 is only used to negate 有, never other verbs):

• 明天不下雨 ✅

If you see 没 before another verb, it's just a shortened version of auxiliary 没有:

• 昨天没下雨 ✅ (same as 昨天没有下雨)

  

On 1/4/2024 at 8:43 AM, piano0011 said:

1) hen duo xia yu

 

下 is a verb and 雨 is the object, and 很多 applies to the object, not the verb, so you need to place it before the object:

• 下很多雨  ✅   (more normally something like 昨天下了很多雨 or 明天要下很多雨 if it's a full sentence)

• 很多下雨  ❌ 

  

On 1/4/2024 at 8:43 AM, piano0011 said:

2) hen duo yu

 

很多雨 is fine, but not a full sentence. It just means "a lot of rain".

[piano0011]

appreciate the detailed explanation... So I must say the following then :

 

1) zuotian mei you yu 

2) zuotian xia mei you yu

3) mingtian yao xia yu

4) mingtian yao xia hen duo yu

5) mingtian yao yu

 

Can I say number 5?

[Demonic_Duck]

2 and 5 are wrong:

• 2 should be 昨天没有下雨 (word order).
• 5 should be 明天要下雨. The 要 is also an auxiliary verb, similar to "will" in English, so you still need a main verb 下.

[piano0011]

thanks and appreciate your detailed explanation! chinese grammar can be a bit confusing...

[Lu]

下雨 is literally 'fall rain'. Verb + object. It kind of equals a verb ('to rain'), but you have to remain aware of it consisting of two words if you want to be able to split and use it correctly.

Tomorrow fall rain 明天下雨

Tomorrow fall a lot of rain 明天下很多雨

Yesterday not have fall rain 昨天没有下雨

*Yesterday fall not have rain *昨天下没有雨, your sentence no. 2. You can see how this doesn't work.

 

I don't know if you've learned about 了 yet? The thing with 了 is that when you want to use a negation (not-了), you don't use 不, you use 没. So 没 is often just 'not-了'.

In Taiwan, many Mandarin speakers use 没有 instead of just 没, and also the affirmative 有. In China, this is simpy incorrect, and even in a Taiwanese classroom many teachers would count it as wrong (or did so 15 years ago when I was studying there, at least). Best not use 没有 as a negation or past tense, unless you only talk with Taiwanese people.

[piano0011]

Thanks for the detailed explanation and pointing out that xia yu is a verb object.. So I guess I can say the following:

1)mingtian you xia yu

2) mingtian you xia hen duo yu

3) mingtian yao xia yu

 

Can I say:

 

mingtian yao you yu?

 

am confused here because I understand that I can say...

 

mingtian yao xia yu 

[piano0011]

I am still wondering whether I can say and I think i can....

 

mingtian yao xia yu 

mingtian yao you yu

mingtian you you yu

mingtian you xia yu

 

because i guess xia4 and you3 are verbs? 

 

just like to clarify it but I think both are correct because as stated that xia4 and you3 are verbs? I am also wondering if I could say: mingtian you youyu because i believe that someone above said that we can't say this because of the confusion between you3 and you3yu3 but just like to confirm this?

[anonymoose]

What is your native language? English?

 

I think the problem is that you are assuming the grammar and words of the Chinese sentence have a one-to-one correspondence with English.

 

In English, 'rain' has a dual function as a verb and a noun, whereas in many languages (such as Chinese), 雨 is a noun only. To express the verb form of 'rain', the word you are looking for is 下雨.

 

To say, 'Tomorrow it will rain', you need the verb form of 'rain'. When expressing a future action in Chinese, often we use 要 to mean will. So 'Tomorrow it will rain' should be 明天要下雨.

 

I would not say 有雨 in Chinese because that means 'have rain', and as in English, it is not natural.

[piano0011]

I am still confused here because both xia4 and you3 are verbs right? Can I say... mingtian yao you yu = mingtian yao xia yu? You said that you won't use: mingtian yao you yu? Still like some more opinions on this because I just thought that mingtian yao you yu sounds right as well.....

[EnergyReaper]

On 1/7/2024 at 9:45 AM, piano0011 said:

Can I say... mingtian yao you yu = mingtian yao xia yu?

No, you can say 明天有雨吗？or 明天下雨吗？or 明天要下雨吗？or even 明天会有雨吗？ but don't say 明天要有雨吗？Forget the grammar, and just remember it.

Similarly, you can say 明天有课吗？ or 明天上课吗？ or 明天要上课吗？but don't say 明天要有课吗？

[piano0011]

this is interesting but why? Is there a reason for this? is you3 not a verb but xia4 is?

[cncorrect]

On 1/7/2024 at 9:45 AM, piano0011 said:

I just thought that mingtian yao you yu sounds right as well.

I've heard of the sentence sometimes in my life, but less common than mingtian yao xia yu.

[piano0011]

ah.... so i guess both are okay to be used but I better use ...mingtian yao xia yu...

[Lu]

On 1/7/2024 at 5:54 AM, piano0011 said:

this is interesting but why? Is there a reason for this? is you3 not a verb but xia4 is?

有 is a verb. 下 is also a verb here. But *明天要有下雨 is not good Chinese.

There is a reason, but then you need to get into advanced linguistics (and I won't be able to explain it, I don't know advanced linguistics). At this point in your studies, it's the most efficient if you just remember that *明天要有雨 is bad Chinese and not use it. At some later point you will either just get it, or you can go find a linguist who can explain it to you.

[piano0011]

thanks... So I just have to remember that I should say:

 

mingtian yao xia yu = mingtian yao xia hen duo yu... etc