Book of the year 2024: 射鵰英雄傳 by 金庸

[honglam]

On 3/3/2024 at 1:38 AM, lordsuso said:

伍子胥    伍子胥    wǔzǐxū    Wu Zixu (-484 BC), powerful politician, famous as destitute refugee begging in the town of Wu

I think using characters here will be more helpful for others so they won't mess up. 伍子胥 once begged in one of the towns of 吳(A Principality of 周 dynasty).

On 3/3/2024 at 1:38 AM, lordsuso said:

葛洪    葛洪    gěhóng    Ge Hong (283-363), Jin dynasty Daoist and alchemist, author of 抱樸子|抱朴子[bàopǔzǐ]

Note that 葛洪 is also a famous doctor, who wrote 肘後備急方, a famous book of TCM. Using the herb 青蒿 to cure malaria was recorded in his books.

On 3/3/2024 at 1:38 AM, lordsuso said:

吴越    吳越    wúyuè    states of south China in different historical periods; proverbially perpetual arch-enemies

Note that this word has different meanings in different context.

1. 吳越 = 吳 and 越, two principalities of 周 dynasty fighting against each other for most of time.

2. 吳越 = 吳越國, a 

3. loosely meaning the middle and lower reaches of the Yangtze, approximately the area of 江蘇(south part), 浙江, 上海, 安徽(south part), 福建(north part) and surrounding areas, which was generally the former territory of 吳 and 越. Just a word to describe the Southeastern part of Mainland that is not quite concise.

On 3/3/2024 at 1:38 AM, lordsuso said:

遗孀    遺孀    yíshuāng    widow

Emphasize that 遺孀 tends to be used as "XX的遺孀" = someone's widow.

[lordsuso]

Three chapters in, and if he keeps introducing new characters at this rate it's going to be tough to remember them all.

 

CHAPTER 3  VOCAB

Spoiler

proper nouns

漠北    漠北    mòběi    Outer Mongolia (lit. north of the Gobi Desert)
察合台    察合臺    chágětái    Chagatai (died 1241), a son of Genghis Khan
拖雷    拖雷    tuōléi    Tolui (1193-1232), fourth son of Genghis Khan
木华黎    木華黎    mùhuálí    Muqali or Mukhali (1170-1223), military commander under Genghis Khan 成吉思汗[chéngjísīhán]
窝阔台    窩闊臺    wōkuòtái    Ögedei Khan (1186-1242), a son of Genghis Khan
铁木真    鐵木真    tiěmùzhēn    Temujin, birth name of Genghis Khan 成吉思汗[chéngjísīhán]
荆轲    荊軻    jīngkē    Jing Ke (-227 BC), celebrated in verse and fiction as would-be assassin of King Ying Zheng of Qin 秦嬴政 (later the First Emperor 秦始皇)

 

other words

簇拥    簇擁    cùyōng    to crowd around; to escort
游牧    遊牧    yóumù    nomadic; to move about in search of pasture; to rove around as a nomad
消平    消平    xiāopíng    消除，平息。
怪僻    怪僻    guàipì    eccentric; peculiar
乖戾    乖戾    guāilì    perverse (behavior); disagreeable (character)
抱愧    抱愧    bàokuì    feel ashamed
其时    其時    qíshí    那时;当时。 · 犹言正当时;正是时候。
闲气    閒氣    xiánqì    anger over trifles
代步    代步    dàibù    to get around using a conveyance (car, bicycle, sedan chair etc); to ride (or drive); means of transportation
摇橹    搖櫓    yáolǔ    to scull (with a single oar, usually mounted on the stern of the boat)
解缆    解纜    jiělǎn    to untie a mooring rope
勒逼    勒逼    lèbī    to coerce; to force; to press sb into doing sth
詈骂    詈罵    lìmà    (literary) to scold; to abuse
敕令    敕令    chìlìng    Imperial order or edict (old)
皮裘    皮裘    píqiú    毛皮的衣服。
畜养    畜養    xùyǎng    to raise (domestic animals)
大汗    大汗    dàhán / dàhàn    supreme khan / profuse perspiration
下颏    下頦    xiàkē    chin; Taiwan pr. [xiàhái]
倒栽葱    倒栽蔥    dàozāicōng    to fall headlong; (fig.) to suffer an ignominious failure
獒犬    獒犬    áoquǎn    mastiff (dog breed)
准拟    準擬    zhǔnnǐ    料想;打算;希望。 · 准备;安排。 · 旧时公文用语。谓批准下级的拟议。
倾囊    傾囊    qīngnáng    to empty out one's pocket; (fig.) to give everything one has (to help)
攒动    攢動    cuándòng    to crowd together and move back and forth
册封    冊封    cèfēng    to confer a title upon sb; to dub; to crown; to invest with rank or title
羁縻    羈縻    jīmí    (literary) to keep (vassal states, etc) under control
逸乐    逸樂    yìlè    pleasure-seeking
晏起    晏起    yànqǐ    to get up late
帐幕    帳幕    zhàngmù    tent

 

[honglam]

On 3/9/2024 at 6:09 PM, lordsuso said:

大汗    大汗    dàhán / dàhàn    supreme khan / profuse perspiration

When addressing the highest rulers of the Mongolian Empire, generally we can use a proper name "Khagan" in English. This concept is quite different from "Khan". Sometimes in Chinese this concept would be transliterated as "合罕"(as in Secret HIstory of the Mongols蒙古秘史) or "可汗". So, when 大汗 is used as the title of Genggis Khagan(Temujin), Ogedei, Guyug, Mongke, Kublai, etc, it should be transliterated as "Khagan".

Yet this word can merely be used as a respectful title addressing the Khans of the Mongolian Khanates in novels I'd say.

On 3/9/2024 at 6:09 PM, lordsuso said:

羁縻    羈縻    jīmí    (literary) to keep (vassal states, etc) under control

羁縻 is a special political organisation system of ancient China. You can look it up in Wiki(the entry "Jimi system") for detailed elaborations.

On 3/9/2024 at 6:09 PM, lordsuso said:

帐幕    帳幕    zhàngmù    tent

Actually 帐幕 is the curtain hung at the entrance of tents. It can refer to the whole tent as well.

 

And some historical and geographical facts that's not that important:

1. 外蒙古 outer mongolia usually refer to the region of Mongolia(the country) nowadays. Conversely 内蒙古 is an autonomous region of PRC. Generally, 外蒙古 covers the area of former 漠北蒙古 and 内蒙古 for the former 漠南蒙古. But the relationship of equivalence is not that concise.

2. As he's been enthroned as the khagan of the Mongolian empire, the Mongolian title of Ogedei should be "Ogedei Khagan". Yet wikipedia said Ogedei Khan, which I find a bit peculiar. It's true that Ogedei reigned his own Khanate(Ogedei Khanate) before Temujin's death, but he became the Khagan after that.

3. 秦嬴政 is a weird name. Before Han dynasty, male aristocrats has their tribal name姓, clan name氏, name名 and nickname字, which is similar to the roman system of nomen, cognomen, praenomen and agnomen. Among them, 姓 are unchangeable, and 氏 depends on the political status of one(which means one could have more than one 氏, used in different contexts.)

The names of male aristocrats showing up in historical documents usually has the following structure during 春秋 and 战国, that is, clan name + name (+ title, if any). So most of times we mentioned 秦始皇's name as "赵政" or "秦王政". 

The concept 姓 and 氏 merged during the end of 战国 and the beginning of 汉, and people might use 姓 + 名 to call the male aristocrats of 春秋 and 战国 period, which lead to "嬴政".

[Woodford]

Just started reading this book today! I can already understand the appeal that it has with a lot of people. A lot of action, intrigue, and crazy Kung Fu moves. It took a bit of time for me to get accustomed with the style of the book's language, but it's fast-moving and never dull. I tried testing my reading comprehension by opening up a copy of the English translation ("A Hero Born," translated by Anna Holmwood), but I discovered that it omits a considerable amount of material (sometimes a word, sometimes a clause within a sentence, sometimes an entire paragraph). I know that Jin Yong often released updated editions of all his old books, and perhaps the English translation is based off a different edition. Or the English translation is deliberately abridged. Or some phrases just didn't translate well into English, so the translator left them out. I suspect, actually, that it's a combination of all three reasons. I quickly abandoned the English book, though it was great to see the English translation of the poetry sections.

 

The vocabulary wasn't too bad, and I was pleasantly surprised that I've seen a lot of these words in other works of historical fiction already. I appreciate that even though the style is rather literary, the underlying sentence structure is simple enough--I can actually understand what's going on.
 

Spoiler

I was particularly amused by the character Qu San--he's introduced as a frail old man in the beginning, but he turns out to be an unstoppable warrior who can do impossible moves with his crutches. It adds a lot of charm to the story.

I don't think I'll read all 4 books in succession. I will at least finish this first volume!
 

[Woodford]

I'm encountering a new grammar convention in this book that I've never seen before, with the character 将. I'm used to seeing it being used like the particle 把 (他将这些蛋糕都吃完了) and as a way of expressing the future (他将会成为一个成功的企业家), but what about when it's placed directly after the verb?

To use an example right out of the book (and I could have chosen several examples): 郭啸天伸手在桌上重重一拍,只拍得杯儿,筷儿,碟儿都跳将起来...

I know it's saying that Guo Xiaotian hit the table so hard that the cups, chopsticks, and dishes leaped up from the table. But what is 将 doing here?

And....as a bonus question....what is 只 doing in this sentence? I've encountered it a lot in the book so far, and I usually translate it as "only" or "just," but that doesn't seem to fit here.

[sanchuan]

On 3/14/2024 at 8:41 PM, Woodford said:

what about when it's placed directly after the verb?

You'll find it 'explained' in various dictionaries as a 助词, one that's:

置於動詞後, 常和「進來」、「起來」、「進去」等補語連用。如：「打將起來」、「哭將起來」or 用在動詞和趨向補語之間, 表示趨向（常與「起來」、「進來」、「進去」連用）. Pleco's own dictionary reports the feature as dialectal, though I'd love to know more in terms of how and when it's used by whom nowadays. 

 

My own explanation is that it acts more as a 连词 there actually. Classical 将 could mean 又 or 且, so I'd see it as fulfilling a similar role when used between verbs like that. It's a way to 'introduce' the consequent verb of direction, akin to how 而 is used between a preverbal argument and a main verb.

 

On 3/14/2024 at 8:41 PM, Woodford said:

what is 只 doing in this sentence?

Looking at the sentence stone-cold, and then at your translation, I first got the sense that 只拍得 might be closer to "just hard enough to" (rather than "so hard that").

 

...But otherwise it's just safer, I think, to read it simply as the author's preferred choice of mild adversative (something like "but then", "except", or indeed "only", cf. "[...] and banged his hands on the table, only to hit it so hard that [...]".)

[Woodford]

On 3/14/2024 at 6:11 PM, sanchuan said:

It's a way to 'introduce' the consequent verb of direction, akin to how 而 is used between a preverbal argument and a main verb.

 

Yeah, I think that's probably the case! I dug deeper into my Pleco dictionaries, and it does seem that it goes between a verb and its directional complement, and it seems pretty much untranslatable in English. I wonder if it's just a grammar convention that was used 100+ years ago and has fallen out of use in modern Mandarin.

 

I've also stumbled upon another oddity, in the author's use of the character 处. Anyone else notice it?

 

For instance: 杨铁心转头对妻子道：“你快多穿件衣服，我夺他的马给你。待我先射倒将官，兵卒自然乱了。“松手放弦，弦声响处，箭发流星，正中那武官胸膛。

 

Or: 杨铁心大喝一声，疾冲出门，铁枪起处，官兵惊呼倒退。

 

Otherwise, this has been an incredibly enjoyable read. The language is a little archaic, but never so hard that I can't closely follow what's happening. The story is straightforward. It's far from the hardest thing I've ever read (I'd say it's maybe around the 80th percentile in terms of difficulty). I like the lively storytelling, the likable characters, the fast pace, the crazy Kung Fu skills, the surprise plot twists, etc. Jin Yong really knows how to maximize the fun.

 

I'd say this is turning out to be my favorite Chinese book so far (it's my 48th native-level book), and maybe one of my favorite books of any language, ever. I was reluctant to start it (I've never been a diehard fan of the genre), but now I find it difficult to put down.

[lordsuso]

I think my warm-up period is finally over, these last two chapters went by smoothly. Well, everything but the action scenes... Unless I am really focusing, sometimes it feels like I'm reading rally copilot instructions: twist left shoot hit palm right grab vertical poke "ancient plum crimson spear" jump foot randomchengyu down summersault fall... After a while I just zone out and make up the moves in my head, otherwise it's exhausting. My previous experience with Gu Long was way easier, especially 多情剑客无情剑 where the fights were very short.

 

I've noticed this structure quite often 连_带_ : 连箭带雁, 连人带马, 连奔带跑. One of those is a chengyu so I'm guessing it's just a fancy-pants way of putting two things together.

 

I have a question regarding 幌, all I find online is that it is a noun (curtain, cloth screen), but it is often used as a verb (e.g. 三天幌眼即过。 or 当下只是身子一幌，立即双掌飞舞。). Is it just an obscure variant of 晃?

 

CHAPTERS 4-5 SPOILERS

Spoiler

I feel bad for Guo Jing, he gets called clumsy and dumb like a dozen times haha. Also the crazy skull-crushing couple is goals 贼婆娘，伤得怎样？会要了你的臭命么？

 

CHAPTERS 4-5 VOCAB

Spoiler

彪    彪    biāo    tiger stripes; tiger cub; (old) classifier for troops
封爵    封爵    fēngjué    to confer a title; to ennoble; to knight; title of nobility
中都    中都    zhōngdū    Zhongdu, capital of China during the Jin Dynasty (1115-1234), modern day Beijing
骁勇    驍勇    xiāoyǒng    (literary) brave; valiant
君长    君長    jūnzhǎng    the monarch and his ministers; tribal chief
亥时    亥時    hàishí    9-11 pm (in the system of two-hour subdivisions used in former times)
山魈    山魈    shānxiāo    mandrill (Mandrillus sphinx); legendary mountain spirit
金兰    金蘭    jīnlán    profound friendship; sworn brotherhood
垓心    垓心    gāixīn    (dated) centre of a battlefield
浑号    渾號    húnhào    nickname
情知    情知    qíngzhī    to know full well; to be fully aware
揣摸    揣摸    chuǎimō    to try to fathom; to try to figure out · variant of 揣摩[chuǎimó]
砒霜    砒霜    pīshuāng    white arsenic; arsenic trioxide As2O3
然诺    然諾    ránnuò    (literary) promise; pledge
恚怒    恚怒    huìnù    to be enraged; furious
忖念    忖念    cǔnniàn    思念。
鲁钝    魯鈍    lǔdùn    stupid; slow on the uptake
朱颜    朱顏    zhūyán    (dated) beautiful face (of a woman); bright colour
啰唣    囉唣    luózào    to create a disturbance; to make trouble; to harass
娇纵    嬌縱    jiāozòng    to indulge (a child); to pamper; to spoil
理屈    理屈    lǐqū    be in the wrong; have a weak case
栗然    慄然    lìrán    (literary) shivering; shuddering
无已    無已    wúyǐ    endlessly; to have no choice
遗腹子    遺腹子    yífùzǐ    posthumous child
项颈    項頸    xiàngjǐng    back of neck
后嗣    後嗣    hòusì    heir; descendant; posterity
馁    餒    něi    (bound form) hungry; starving; (bound form) dispirited; (literary) (of fish) putrid
缒    縋    zhuì    to let down with a rope

 

[Woodford]

On 3/15/2024 at 5:19 PM, lordsuso said:

I've noticed this structure quite often 连_带_ : 连箭带雁, 连人带马, 连奔带跑. One of those is a chengyu so I'm guessing it's just a fancy-pants way of putting two things together.

 

Yeah, that is what it means--I've encountered this structure in quite a few books. One of the most common expressions I've seen is 连滚带爬, which portrays someone as rolling and crawling at the same time, desperate to escape. 

 

I have to slow down when I'm reading some of the action scenes, just to make sure I understand what I'm reading. Sometimes, I have to read a sentence twice. I never understand the names of certain moves (招法, I think). Flying tiger winter down spear thrust! Whistling dumpling dog cat spinning lotus! Well...maybe I'm exaggerating a bit.

[lordsuso]

On 3/15/2024 at 11:17 PM, Woodford said:

It's far from the hardest thing I've ever read

Out of curiosity (and to avoid them haha), do you remember any authors that were harder than this?

[Lu]

On 3/16/2024 at 8:56 AM, lordsuso said:

Out of curiosity (and to avoid them haha), do you remember any authors that were harder than this?

You didn't ask me, but: Mo Yan, 红楼梦, and possibly 马伯庸. Although it's going on 20 years ago that I tried Mo Yan, so perhaps I'd find him less impossible now.

 

I finished chapter 3 and am now flying into chapter 4. I should have looked up a few words but I wanted to read on so I didn't.

[Woodford]

On 3/16/2024 at 2:56 AM, lordsuso said:

Out of curiosity (and to avoid them haha), do you remember any authors that were harder than this?

 

Yeah, I would agree with Lu that Mo Yan is rather difficult. I remember that he inserted a lot of poetry and other odd things into his writing. He writes in a surrealistic style, which means that he can sometimes be disorienting. It never got so hard as to be unreadable (if you can handle Jin Yong, then you can probably handle Mo Yan), but it wasn't the easiest read.

 

I think my worst experience was reading "Fortress Besieged" (围城) by Qian Zhongshu. My goodness....I think it was about my 25th book, but I was not prepared for the difficulty of certain sections of it. Truly painful.

 

Then there are other books (like the one I've just read, 看见) that require knowledge of contemporary Chinese culture, Chinese slang, casual ways of talking, etc. I struggle with that a bit. I read another book by the internet celebrity Luo Xiang, a lawyer who likes to talk about the philosophy behind crime and punishment. The book was ultimately okay, and I could read it, but there was just so much "legalese" involved, and he likes to use a lot of chengyu.

 

If I can look up words in a dictionary and move onward, then I'm okay. If I can't even understand a passage in a book after I've looked up the words, then I'm not happy. Ha!

 

Even though there's a little pain now and then, I still feel great about where my reading skills are at, and wouldn't want to discourage anyone else who is trying to learn to read Chinese! It is a long and winding road, though.

[lordsuso]

Thanks to both of you!

On 3/16/2024 at 1:10 PM, Woodford said:

If I can't even understand a passage in a book after I've looked up the words, then I'm not happy. Ha!

Yes this frustrates me a lot as well. The thing is that this happens to me while reading in other languages too, but since Chinese is the one I'm learning I feel obliged to understand every single thing. I need to learn to let go.

[honglam]

On 3/16/2024 at 6:19 AM, lordsuso said:

项颈    項頸    xiàngjǐng    back of neck

I'm not quite sure about the context but literally 颈 means the front of neck and 项 means the back of neck. Thus there's a medical term called 颈项强直stiff-neck, which means the whole neck is stiff.

[Woodford]

On 3/3/2024 at 10:24 AM, Lu said:

Jin Yong turns out to not really understand how childbirth works.

 

I just read this part, and wow, it was one of the most unintentionally hilarious things I've ever read in a book. It took me by surprise. It hasn't been long since I witnessed the birth of a child myself, and....I don't remember it being like that.

 

Apparently, Jin Yong had 4 kids of his own, so...maybe he just wasn't around when they were born? Or maybe the book was written before he was a father, and he never changed it.

[Lu]

On 3/20/2024 at 3:06 PM, Woodford said:

I just read this part, and wow, it was one of the most unintentionally hilarious things I've ever read in a book.

Yeah, that was wild. Surely Jin Yong, or at least one of his editors, must have known better? Ah well, at least it was badass.

 

The other thing I thought was really funny (but which it turned out I had just misunderstood) happened during the drinking match between 丘处机 and the 江南七怪 in chapter 2, where one of the 七怪 is surprised that 丘处机 just keeps downing one drink after the other: not only should 丘 have keeled over from all the alcohol, how does his stomach even hold it? And then he notices the growing wet spot around 丘处机‘s feet. Aha! He's using 内功! And I laughed out loud: suuuure, when it's kungfu we don't call it peeing on the floor, we call it 内功. But a bit later it turns out that I was wrong and it really is a separate special technique.

[lordsuso]

I am calling both of you haters, I found this article saying that

Spoiler

there are numerous authentic instances where labor began during sleep, and the baby was born without the mother awakening

You seem to forget this is no ordinary baby!

 

I don't know why but this sentence also made me laugh 过得约莫挤两桶牛乳时分, I just have no idea how long that is.

Also Lu we discussed not knowing when a character actually dies, well guess who wakes up a page after this sentence 那人已被他叉得喘气不得，晕死过去。

 

The book just keeps better and better, it's very hard to put down!

[Woodford]

On 3/20/2024 at 10:11 AM, Lu said:

And then he notices the growing wet spot around 丘处机‘s feet. Aha! He's using 内功! And I laughed out loud: suuuure, when it's kungfu we don't call it peeing on the floor, we call it 内功. But a bit later it turns out that I was wrong and it really is a separate special technique.

 

That part confused me a little bit when I first read it. To me, it seemed like he had some kind of odd ability to leak the alcohol....out of his feet? And I'm unfamiliar with this whole genre of books, so I'm not 100% educated about the nuances and distinctions between things like 内功 and 外功. 

 

On 3/16/2024 at 9:24 AM, lordsuso said:

but since Chinese is the one I'm learning I feel obliged to understand every single thing. I need to learn to let go.

I think that after my next milestone (my 50th book) I'm going to start a tradition of refusing to use a dictionary when I read (at least some) books. I just won't be allowed to look up the words, and I'll have to keep reading, doing my best to guess what the words might mean from context. I think that will help my reading ability and increase my efficiency. I think I could understand this book pretty well without a dictionary, but I'm tediously looking stuff up in Pleco all the time, out of habit.

[lordsuso]

On 3/21/2024 at 2:10 PM, Woodford said:

out of his feet?

It was probably out of his entire skin, but now I prefer to imagine Lu's version. I don't know about other wuxia authors, but in the three Gu Long books I've read nothing was really explained, I guess it's similar to the hard and soft magic systems in western fantasy. 

[Lu]

On 3/21/2024 at 2:10 PM, Woodford said:

To me, it seemed like he had some kind of odd ability to leak the alcohol....out of his feet? And I'm unfamiliar with this whole genre of books, so I'm not 100% educated about the nuances and distinctions between things like 内功 and 外功. 

I am also not at all well versed in 武侠 matters, but my thinking is that 内功 is for things within your body, and 外功 for what you do to the outside world.

He doesn't just leak the alcohol, I think, he leaks the 酒 as a whole. For all I know he can choose exactly which part of his body it goes out of, and in this case his feet are the most convenient, because that way he keeps his clothes dry.