Chinese -- mathematical friendlier than English

[JoH]

Well, I was always crap at my times tables, and this might be completely off topic, but it did occur to me the other day (when I was in a lecture on logic) that classical chinese sometimes seems to have a really pleasing logical structure. Like 百戰百勝，非善之善也 from the art of war, for example. Or 知之爲知之, 不知爲不知, 是知也 from the analects. They seem kind of similar in a way to logical languages. Maybe...?

[geek_frappa]

Well, I was always crap at my times tables, and this might be completely off topic, but it did occur to me the other day (when I was in a lecture on logic) that classical chinese sometimes seems to have a really pleasing logical structure. Like 百戰百勝，非善之善也 from the art of war, for example. Or 知之爲知之, 不知爲不知, 是知也 from the analects. They seem kind of similar in a way to logical languages. Maybe...?

jin (gold) is 8 strokes, which is good luck 8888888.... coincidence? maybe not. a very good point you made...

[smithsgj]

> 知之爲知之, 不知爲不知, 是知也

Balanced, logical, meaningless.

[Quest]

meaningless? :?

[JoH]

I was just going to ask the same thing. Is it just that particular phrase you find meaningless smithsgj, or the analects in general?

[Guest dodo]

there's also a steretype that asians are better in math here in the US while everyone is taught by english and under the same curriculum. but then you can argue many asian parents are more focused on their kids' academics?

[Guest dodo]

Please tell me which public grade school in which country offers such wide curriculum as you mention.

For public school in US' date=' I only know that they install metal screen detector at the entrance.

Students attending public school in US is only slighty less risky than soldiers stationing in Iraq.[/quote']

wow.. is this statement too generalized. yes sometimes you hear shooting incidents in schools in the news but i never felt my life was constantly in danger. i've gone to school in the US from 7th grade - college. i do believe they are more focused in sports and music area. very rarely are you popular in school because of your grades (since they are private anyway).. you are usu. popular because you are a sports star, a cheerleader or just plain sociable. it's a totally different story in China. grades are everything to students in China. their lives are soly depended on it. and your parents want you to befriend those who do well in school not sports stars. many american students have a lot more on their minds than studying in school. that's just how i feel by attending school here for 10 years.

[Guest dodo]

just being a curious kitty, i did a little research.

got some stats about crime rates in public schools in the US.

For every 100,000 public school students, 26 attacks or fights with a weapon, 17 robberies, and 10 rapes occurred at school (Table 10). These represented the serious violent crimes for which the survey collected data. More frequently reported were the less serious or nonviolent crimes including 444 attacks or fights without a weapon, 274 incidents of theft or larceny, and 234 incidents of vandalism per 100,000 students in public schools.

funny thing, one of the sites mentioned:

Adults in the workplace are at greater risk of violence than students in school. According to a U.S. Department of Justice report, Workplace Violence, 1992-96:

so if students are like soliders stationing at Iraq, workers must be like soliders stationing in WWII. seriously don't hope you feel that way working in the US.

[Ian_Lee]

So now my hypothesis that Chinese is more mathematically friendlier than English has been proven to some degree, maybe we can revive discussion on this thread.

[mncuso]

At my public school, we learned our multiplication tables through 12x12 in second grade. Therefore I must be a better mathematician than everyone in China who only learned up to 9x9.

Of course that would be a specious conclusion, as is the conclusion drawn in the original post, in my humble opinion.

[tetsuo500]

In Australia we have the multiplication songs with the catchy tunes, "seven ones are se-ven, seven twos are four-teen, seven threes.....", we also have the tables on the back of every note book. A lot of people become good at maths, while others (like me) can't even do basic calculations even though they are in university.

And it has nothing to do with the songs we used to learn maths.

It has everything to do with if you put the work in, and if you had parents who pushed you to learn.

In Australia if we don't learn our maths properly it's ok. In China if you don't learn your maths, you are made to do it again until you get it right. Nothing to with one language being more maths friendly, it's just the way lessons are taught and how strict teachers and parents are willing to be.

On a side note, I heard most Chinese school kids are generally excellent at dealing with mathematical problems, but lacking in creativity. Can't remember where I read it, I think it was in my lecture notes for an Asian Studies subject, but in one school and Australian teacher went to a Chinese primary school and got the children to draw a "happy picture", expecting them to draw their family, pets or whatever. The kids just asked for further instruction on what they were actually meant to draw.

[kokleong]

Some basis for discussion.

http://www.math.admu.edu.ph/tsg22/Zhang.html

[Yuchi]

It's not only school.

When I was 5, my father laid in bed, half asleep, telling us to recite the whole times table, 1-9 anyway, for about an hour.

Or maybe it is the school, but I believe that theres alot of parental influence on the time table, I have it etched in my brain.

[shibo77]

Hello everyone! I think it is not about multiplication tables or anything. I have two points to share.

1 Chinese numbers have a single mora, a single sound, would it be easier to memorise

ling yi er san si wu liu qi ba jiu shi

or

zero one two three four five six seven eight nine ten

Just compare the length of the two lines...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 Chinese numbers are more decimal than English numbers.

In Chinese, memorise the words for 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and you can count from 0 up to 99.

0ling 1yi 2er 3san 4si 5wu 6liu 7qi 8ba 9jiu

10shi 11shi yi 12shi er 13shi san 14shi si 15shi wu 16shi liu 17shi qi 18shi ba 19shi jiu

20er shi 30san shi 41 si shi yi 52 wu shi er 63 liu shi san 74qi shi si

85 ba shi wu 99 jiu shi jiu

99 jiu shi jiu (literally 9jiu 10shi 9jiu; the logic is 9jiu *multiplies 10shi +pluses 9jiu =yields 99jiu shi jiu)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In English, memorise the words for 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, (13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 60, 70, 90, 80), 20, 30, 40, 50.

60, 70, 90 adds -ty to the numbers 6six, 7seven, 9nine.

80 adds -y to the number 8eight.

14, 16, 17, 19 adds -teen adds -teen to the numbers 4four, 6six, 7seven, 9nine.

18 adds -een to the number 8eight.

In summary, 28 words have to be memorised in English, 11 words have to be memorised in Chinese (take off the 0ling, which isn't used except the number 0, and one arrives at a "decimal -ten based number system").

Germanic languages like English, German, Dutch changes at 12 and 13.

12twelve, 13thirteen (third-of-the-teens), and then comes orthographic changes, 15fifteen.

Italic languages Spanish and Portuguese changes at 15 and 16.

French and Italian changes at 16 and 17.

16seize, 17dix sept (10dix 7sept), and then comes orthographic changes...

60 is soixante, and 70 becomes soixante dix (60soixante+10dix), 80 is quatre vingts (4quatre*20s vingts), 90 becomes quatre vingts dix (4quatre*20s vingts+10dix)

Danish has 50 as halvtreds (2.5*20 two-and-one-half times twenty)???? It took me sometime to understand the logic,

20 1*20 one times twenty

30 1.5*20 one-and-a-half times twenty

40 2*20 two times twenty

50 2.5*20 two-and-a-half times twenty

...

...

this continues to 90 which is 4.5 times 20.... 我天呐!

I read from a website that Tongan has the easiest number system.

It has 10 as (one zero), 11 (one one), 12 (one two), 25 (two five), 100 (one zero zero)...

The language being more of a decimal system has great advantages for today's world. Our world is dominated by the decimal system. We are tuned to think numbers as based on 10. We divide into multiples of 10, 100, 1000, 10000...

The Mayans used a 20 vigesimal number system, their lives were tuned to thinking of numbers as 20s. 20 days a month, 20 years a cycle.

500 years a new sun. If the Mayans dominated the world, our math books and calculators would be very different...

I hope this helped!

-Shibo

[sm_sung]

shibo, are you a maths major or something? How did you know all this? And in so many languages!

[nnt]

I could not resist!!

14forteen

14 = fourteen in English

Btw: the origin of decimal system was the French Revolution which imposed it in France. French Revolution and its heir Napoleon were defeated by European monarchies, but its ideas eventually dominated the world, at least in this domain!

[Quest]

I hated the french counting system. as you said, to say 90 they have to say "four twenties ten"

now 94 times 93 becomes "four twenties ten four" times "four twenties ten three"... can you do that math in your head?

[nnt]

he, he... The decimal system is for measuring (division of units...): you still owe the measuring and weighing in multiples of tens to the French, the metre, the kg, and measuring by centi-sthg, deca-sthg, kilo-sthg, mega-sthg is French.

[Quest]

he, he... The decimal system is for measuring (division of units...): you still owe the measuring and weighing in multiples of tens to the French, the metre, the kg, and measuring by centi-sthg, deca-sthg, kilo-sthg, mega-sthg is French.

I know 个十百千万。

[nnt]

Perhaps, the 4x20=80 was due to the Mayas, or did the French conquer the Maya kingdom before? (Just kidding)

Counting by 20 was a remnant of the Middle Ages in France (Just like the old schillings and pennies in GB)