Numbers of foreigners in China, pre- and post-pandemic

[Dawei3]

I had wondered how about numbers of foreigners living in China before and after the pandemic.  The Wall St J had an article on it (19Mar2024).  It's an article on Beijing's attempt to woo foreigners to live in China, but that it's a tough sell.  Last year, China gave out 711,000 residence permits to foreigners, down 15% from 2019.  Shanghai went from 70,000 in 2020 to 50,000 in 2019.  

Before the pandemic & now, South Korea has had the largest population in China.  It surprised me that SK also  showed one the biggest declines;  i.e., 30% down to 216,000.  In contrast, Japanese showed a drop of just 13% to 102,000.  This surprised me because I thought Japan had more tension with China than SK.    Any thoughts on why so many South Koreans have left?  (I expect for economic reasons, but why didn't this impact Japanese equally?)

The UK might have had higher % decline than SK, but the article just shows a bar graph, not the actual numbers.  It looks like there were more Brits than French before the pandemic, but because of the larger drop in the UK citizens, now France has more.  (As a guestimate by looking at the bar graph, pre-pandemic, the UK had ~40,000 and now it looks like ~20,000.)

The US doesn’t track # of citizens in China, so those numbers aren’t available.   I'd be very interested to know US #s.  Also, the article doesn't mention the numbers for other countries.   If you have more to add, I'd be interested. 

[nicklinjm]

About the S Korea point, for many S Korean firms the US is their single largest export market. So if there was a threat of the US sanctioning certain Chinese suppliers / components (Huawei, etc) then S Korean firms would have no hesitation in cutting ties with that Chinese supplier / partner. Also I feel that S Korean firms have made a lot of efforts to 'friendshore' their supply chain to other SE Asian countries, etc.. Obviously the points above could equally apply to Japanese firms, but maybe they are more diversified and therefore more comfortable keeping their China footprint?

 

Agree on the drop in Brits in China (being from the UK myself)....can't remember the last time I heard British accents on the streets in Beijing / Shanghai (certain pubs notwithstanding!).

[vellocet]

Around here the foreign population plummeted from 5000 to 2000, or so I heard.  

I don't miss 'em. I like to be around foreigners who want to be here, not complainers whose hobby is pointing out how everything is wrong.  The virus locked out the businessman segment of the population and in doing so  wiped out the cottage industry of translators and such. 

Between that and the double rectification campaign closing all the training schools, there aren't too many of us left here. Suits me just fine.  I wouldn't mind a return to the days when we all pretty much knew each other.  

[Dawei3]

On 5/16/2024 at 8:53 AM, vellocet said:

hose hobby is pointing out how everything is wrong

When moving to a new country (or even a new area within the same country), it's easy to compare it with where you're from.  When I moved to England in high school, I often did this and accidentally triggered arguments with friends unless I was saying good things about the country. 

 

It taught me that no matter where you go, look for the good & don't compare unless you're making a favorable comparison; don't complain. Those living there can complain, but if you're new people won't like it when you do.  People like it when you find the good in the place they live.  

[vellocet]

There's a  difference between people who get dragged along like kids and trailing spouses and adults who make a conscious choice. The second group I could not understand until I realized that complaining was a hobby. One man had been here 19 years, barely spoke Chinese and I had to cut him off for a while because all he ever wanted to do was bend my ear and tell me how the Chinese were so stupid and update me on the latest incident that had angered him. When I confronted him asking him if he hated living here so much why didn't he just go home?  His reply: What am I going to do, go back home to Holland and work in a convenience store?

We all moan and groan about China but this is different. 

It's like that one part in Saving Private Ryan where  the sniper from Texas is complaining he is a serious misallocation of military resources and Tom Hanks tells the other soldier, "pay attention, this is the way to gripe."There are the right kind of gripes about China and the wrong kind. 

He has since returned home because his daughter blew the zhongkao and could not enter high school, so he went back so she  could continue her education. I somewhat viciously told him he didn't have to do that, a friend of mine's factory was hiring line workers. 

From what I heard he now manages an amusement park for kids. 

[Dawei3]

On 5/22/2024 at 12:46 PM, vellocet said:

One man had been here 19 years, barely spoke Chinese

This was actually the biggest surprise when I started visiting China; foreigners who never learned Chinese, despite years in China.  I always thought it was an American thing not to learn a 2nd language (I'm American), but in China, I found foreigners from many different countries who didn't want to learn Chinese and some were strangely proud of not learning.  One memorable one: When I asked an American who had lived in Shanghai for 10 years how his Chinese was, he proudly stuck out his chest and said "no Chinese!"  

 

I sense this can be part of the discontent of the non-Chinese speaking foreigners who live there.  While you can survive in China using English, by speaking Chinese, you enter a different world (as I expect many in this forum know).  My experience, just as a visitor, was that friends want me to meet their families and their best friend's families.  Often these individuals spoke little or no English and marveled at the chance to speak with a foreigner (and despite the many limitations to my Chinese, I marveled at the chance to talk with them too).  For me, I saw this happen in an obvious way because in my first trip I could speak very little, but during the next 15 years, my Chinese ability became much better and I could enter their lives more & more.   

[Guest realmayo]

Of course I'm not going to disagree that speaking medium to great Chinese brings lots of benefits if you're living in China. But I can imagine a situation where someone comes to China, finds they can have a good and fun life without speaking much Chinese, and figures that they'll only be in the country for a couple of years so why put themselves through all the suffering of studying the language! And then if they remain in China for longer and continue to have a good and fun life without speaking Chinese, then where's the motivation? I think that for most people (myself definitely included) the language is simply too difficult, unless you are particularly motivated.

 

Got to admit though that the endless whining about why China is crap gets very boring very very quickly.

 

As for the number of foreigners in China, I've noticed lots of Chinese people here are personally very aware of it, or specifically that there's far fewer westerners but perhaps an increasing number of people from China-friendly countries. This does at one small level kind of reinforce the bigger idea of the world turning into a China-bloc and a non-China bloc in the future, which makes a lot of sense for all kind of solid but sad reasons.

[Jan Finster]

To the defence of those that never learned Chinese: up until 10 years ao, I thought I should not even try learning it since I struggled to learn decent French inspite of having had 5 years of French classes in high school. So, the idea that I could master a much more difficult language was foreign to me. The internet has shown me it is poasible and has opened up ways for independent learners tht did not exist before. 

[carlo]

Expats in the late 90s - early 2000s were less likely to have invested a lot of time learning Chinese. I was in Beijing at the time and most were older, senior executives or technical people with a couple of decades of work experience (and then you had the English teachers). Many had zero affinity or interest in language learning. I believe the younger crowd with HSK certificates and local contracts mainly showed up after 2008-2010. This might explain why some of the folks that have been around 20+ years still can't speak much. I do remember being viewed as somewhat of an oddity for always insisting on speaking Chinese on the job in the early 2000s.

[vellocet]

 

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Expats in the late 90s - early 2000s were less likely to have invested a lot of time learning Chinese. I was in Beijing at the time and most were older, senior executives or technical people with a couple of decades of work experience (and then you had the English teachers). Many had zero affinity or interest in language learning

 

"Expats." The word is short for expatriate workers. This means people who work outside their own countries for a year or two and then leave.  I give them a pass. After all, they're in Shanghai for a year, then a year in the Dubai office, and then back to London for a few years while the kids get through elementary school. 

• The English teachers are here for a contract, maybe renew, and then off to the bank to transfer the money back home and it's another farewell party at the bar. 

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ne memorable one: When I asked an American who had lived in Shanghai for 10 years how his Chinese was, he proudly stuck out his chest and said "no Chinese!"  

I know the answer to this riddle: the Sinophone foreigners form an ingroup, and a powerful one.  After all, everyone knows there are formidable barriers to entry to become a functional Sinophone.  Anyone who has scaled this Great Wall has done the work, and unlike some other talents (*cough*) art(*cough) it cannot be faked or posed. Chinese people can  either understand you, or they can't. After a decade he damn well should be a part of this ingroup, but he's not. It's like being 22 years old and still in high school. So, he does the next best thing and says everyone else is weird except for him and forms an ingroup of non-Sinophones. 

It's just a cope.It's a defense.   People have to do this or suffer mental health damage from cognitive dissonance.  The human brain is capable of coming up with many such rationalizations, especially if it is intelligent.  My favorite was that it was too great of an opportunity cost and thus a waste of time.  

If people care, I was thinking of doing a long effortpost that explains this topic at length.  

[abcdefg]

On 5/29/2024 at 2:41 PM, vellocet said:

If people care, I was thinking of doing a long effortpost that explains this topic at length. 

I would read it.

[suMMit]

On 5/30/2024 at 3:41 AM, vellocet said:

So, he does the next best thing and says everyone else is weird except for him and forms an ingroup of non-Sinophones. 

I know a guy who's been here a long time, doesn't speak a word and he says something like: "people who have learned Chinese are almost always arrogant and full of themselves"

[Dawei3]

On 5/29/2024 at 3:41 PM, vellocet said:

If people care, I was thinking of doing a long effortpost that explains this topic at length.  

Your comments are of interest.  I would read it as well.  

[abcdefg]

Back in the day, pre-XJP, pre 严打, I lived in Zhuhai. One of the popular things to do in summer as evening approached was to go down to 莲花巷 (Lotus Alley) which was a no-cars “walking street” only a stone’s throw from the Macau crossing (拱北关口) for a snack and a cold beer at one of the open-air refreshment stands. Musicians played for spare change, “available” girls strolled arm in arm chatting and laughing. The feeling was easy and tropical.  

 

If you sat down on a tall bar stool at one of these modest refreshment establishments, often topped with palm frond roofing as though they were on a south seas island, you would invariably see one or two 50’ish expats, chatting up a cute bartender on the subject of learning Chinese. Soon, the famous red-bound pocket dictionary would be produced to prove or disprove some word which was half remembered. This was the “Bible” before Smartphones became ubiquitous, printed on extremely thin paper in a near-microscopic type font. I must have worn out a dozen of them.

 

These chaps were usually nice enough guys, not troublemakers. On this street, they were part of the landscape. I had chosen to allocate my time differently, prioritizing learning the local language, but I didn’t despise those who had made alternate life decisions. They often knew where to get the best foot massage for modest cost, which cafes had tasty “early bird specials,” and frequently were experts on which sporting houses had the prettiest ladies.