Forgetting the tones

[lordsuso]

I have taken a long break from flashcards (~1 month) for the first time since I started learning Chinese, which means that I haven't been exposed to pinyin at all during that time. 

 

Whenever I read, if I'm not sure of the pronunciation of a word, I usually correct myself by remembering the tone. But ever since I stopped the flashcards, I seem to be forgeting them pretty quickly. 

 

From what I've read online, natives don't really know the tones, so I guess it makes sense for us learners to forget them at some point. I probably should just trust my pronunciation, but I think it's a bit premature to do so because I still erronously pronounce many words.

 

So how do advanced learners do it? Is being exposed to some pinyin inevitable? If not, when did you feel ready to let go?

 

 

[Woodford]

I feel like I've built up a really robust vocabulary, but inevitably, I don't remember every word equally well (usually because I don't encounter the word often enough, or it's too similar to another word). So there are certain words that are embedded so well in my memory that I don't have to think at all to remember them. Then there are those I know very well, but it takes me a second to recall them. Then there are words for which I'm not 100% sure about at least one element: tone, pronunciation, or meaning. And those really bother me, though I end up being correct in my guess about 80-90% of the time. Then there are words where I've just forgotten about tone, pronunciation, or meaning.

 

Tones tend to be the first thing I forget. I imagine that native/advanced people use the spoken language so much that they know what the tones of the words are by experience. But if you've only been reading the words, then there's no other point of reference (besides looking up the pinyin) to know whether you're getting the tone right. And that's what I sometimes do--I just go reach for the Pleco dictionary when I really want to know. But I hope listening practice will reinforce my knowledge of the tones.

[Tomsima]

Definitely agree with everything @Woodford has said. A step I usually take to remember a tone without resorting to a dictionary is to think of a relevant compound for the character in question. This not only jogs my memory, but also disambiguates when the character can have multiple pronunciations. I just had one about an hour ago (though admittedly not the best example): 一石米 where 石 takes it's relatively rarely seen pronunciation 'dan4'

 

[lordsuso]

On 6/20/2024 at 11:05 PM, Woodford said:

I imagine that native/advanced people use the spoken language so much that they know what the tones of the words are by experience.

This is a great point, speaking might be the key to properly internalize the tones to the point where you no longer hesitate. I also hope listening reinforces this, but at some point I think I just have to find a way to speak more often.

 

On 6/20/2024 at 11:31 PM, Tomsima said:

A step I usually take to remember a tone without resorting to a dictionary is to think of a relevant compound for the character in question.

This is very good advice, I lazily go for the pop-up dictionary rather than doing this, I will try it from now on!

[honglam]

On 6/20/2024 at 10:15 PM, lordsuso said:

From what I've read online, natives don't really know the tones

Well actually the tone is a innate part of the phonology of Chinese languages, so the syllable, including the initial, the rhyme, and the tone, comes out altogether as a whole for native speaker. Or in other words, native speakers don't really "add the tone to a syllable" since the tone is actually originally a part of the syllable. It still different to the idea that "native speakers don't really know the tones" I'd say.

So in practice I think remember the pronunciation of certain characters as a whole entity can reduce the time wasted on "adding tones to syllables" I bet. The four tones of Mandarin all have significantly different pitches so I think it's not that hard to memorise them.

BTW I always recommend "High-flat", "Rising", "Falling-rising" and "Falling" rather than 一声、二声、三声、四声. The latter system is quite indirective.

[lordsuso]

You are right @honglam my phrasing wasn't very good, but that's exactly what I meant: natives know how to pronounce the words without thinking about the tone as a separate thing. From my experience, if you ask a native what the tone of a word is, they say the word out loud and listen for the tone. But as a learner I can't really rely on that, because I am not that sure of my pronunciation, I don't trust my pronunciation more than I trust my memory of the pinyin. It sometimes happens with other parts of the sound (in vs ing, or u vs ü), but like Woodford said tones tend to be the first thing I forget.

 

[suMMit]

As far as natives not knowing the tones, I'd say they know it the same way we know word stress. We say NEWSpaper without thinking which syllable to stress, if an English learner asked us, we can tell them the first syllable is stressed, but we never think about it when speaking. We might even need to say it and think about it before answering. And they sound weird as f*c to us when they say newsPAPer. 

 

As for remembering the tone, if I "know" the word, then I don't have to think about the pronunciation (tones, initial, final...). I can't imagine saying 上班 or 冰淇淋 wrong, because I've said them a billion times. Then there are words I used to not remember the pronunciation like 演唱会, but as I learned more words with each character (演出，会议，晚会 ，演员，表演, etc）it became easy to remember the pronunciation of 演唱会. So I think characters actually become really helpful in remembering pronunciation.

 

Words that I cannot remember how to pronounce are either "new" or I learned them a long time ago ago but then rarely used or saw again. If I come across a word that I don't know/remember the pronunciation, I look up the Pinyin or listen to it again(if audio),if I'm in the middle of speaking I will say 这个词语不记得发音 and/or say it another way with other words. 

 

I've been insistant from day one about knowing how to pronounce every word I know otherwise I don't "know" it. When reading, I don't "trust" my pronunciation unless I know that I know it. Any doubt, I look it up.

 

My problem is finding those words and putting them in the right order, with the right grammar to make a nice sentence on the fly when speaking 😅