Perception gap between simplified and traditional Chinese characters

[yanrae]

Hi, I am a student at the University of the Arts London. I am doing research for my project. Rooted in hieroglyphics and a rich cultural history, Chinese characters present unique challenges to learners. While simplified characters are easier to write, they sometimes lose the hieroglyphic elements that help convey their original meaning. Traditional characters, on the other hand, retain more visual elements that help to understand the structure and meaning of the characters. The challenge in teaching Chinese is to find a balance between simplified and traditional characters to help learners better master both forms.

I would like to ask for some of your thoughts on traditional Chinese characters and your cognitive understanding of the hieroglyphics in them, and I hope I can discuss them with you.

[Moshen]

Welcome to the forum.

 

Can you say more about your research project?  Also, what is your level of mastery of Chinese?

 

I am asking because (1) it's very strange to see the word "hieroglyphics" associated with Chinese characters.  Usually Chinese characters are described as ideographic, not hieroglyphic.  Usually the word "hieroglyphic" is used to describe ancient Egyptian writing.  And (2) although some Chinese learners are interested in or are taught to be interested in the pictorial history of Chinese characters, it is most definitely not a necessary element in learning Chinese, whether for traditional or simplified characters.

[yanrae]

Hi, I am a Chinese who is studying in the UK, thank you very much for your reply and for the errors in my expression. I think there was something wrong with my previous language translation expression, so I have rearranged my my expression again, and I think what I really want to convey is like this.

 

Chinese characters are a unique type of writing system known as ideograms, where each character conveys meaning directly through its structure. Over time, the original pictographic symbols evolved into more complex forms that can express both concrete objects and abstract ideas. However, with the widespread use of simplified characters, many people today mainly learn the simplified versions, which have lost some of the original pictographic and ideographic elements. In contrast, traditional characters retain more of these elements.

 

That’s why I want to design a learning tool that lets people see the traditional character forms while they learn the simplified ones. This way, learners can better understand how traditional characters are built and how they connect to the meaning of the words. By using this tool, they can see the pictographic and ideographic features in traditional characters, helping them gain a deeper understanding of the language and its culture.

[Lu]

On 10/20/2024 at 11:27 PM, yanrae said:

Chinese characters are a unique type of writing system known as ideograms, where each character conveys meaning directly through its structure.

But isn't this true for only a small subset of characters? The type that are clearly (derived from) a picture of the thing, such as 馬 and 大; and the types that are a kind of rebus, such as 好 and 休. But the majority of characters are constructed as [radical saying something about the general category] + [component hinting about the pronunciation (that is, the pronunciation at the time the character was formed)], such as 國 and 被. And then there are some truly abstract ones, or characters of which the meaning has shifted so far that it has barely anything to do with the original depiction in it.

[yanrae]

On 10/21/2024 at 8:14 AM, Lu said:

But isn't this true for only a small subset of characters? The type that are clearly (derived from) a picture of the thing, such as 馬 and 大; and the types that are a kind of rebus, such as 好 and 休. But the majority of characters are constructed as [radical saying something about the general category] + [component hinting about the pronunciation (that is, the pronunciation at the time the character was formed)], such as 國 and 被. And then there are some truly abstract ones, or characters of which the meaning has shifted so far that it has barely anything to do with the original depiction in it.

 

Thank you for your correction. I think I would modify it to read: Chinese characters are a unique writing system that combines both ideographic and phonetic elements. They convey meaning through components and provide pronunciation clues through phonetic parts. 

I wanted to design a learning tool that allows people to see both the simplified and traditional forms of the Chinese characters. Traditional Chinese characters retain their pictographic and ideographic elements so that learners can better understand how the characters evolved and how they relate to their meanings. It helps them to deepen their understanding of the language. To better understand the cultural transmission of China.

I welcome any discussion on how to learn Chinese characters and any discussion on the feasibility of my project, thank you.

[Lu]

Can you tell us a bit more about your background? What are you majoring in (Chinese, linguistics, something else), how far along are you in your studies?

[yanrae]

On 10/21/2024 at 11:58 AM, Lu said:

Can you tell us a bit more about your background? What are you majoring in (Chinese, linguistics, something else), how far along are you in your studies?

 

Hi, I am a Chinese student, and I'm doing a Master's in Design in the UK. Because I am interested in Chinese characters, I hope I can design a software to help learn Chinese characters.

[Lu]

On 10/21/2024 at 2:01 PM, yanrae said:

Hi, I am a Chinese student, and I'm doing a Master's in Design in the UK. Because I am interested in Chinese characters, I hope I can design a software to help learn Chinese characters.

In that case I suggest you study some linguistics, specifically in relation to Chinese characters. That should give you a strong foundation to actually understand how characters are constructed, and it could be really useful in understanding how helpful or unhelpful also learning the traditional versions can be.

[lordsuso]

the flashcard app I use has a button to switch between simplified and traditional, I sometimes like to go back and forth to see the changes, but very rarely does it actually help me to better understand the simplified hanzi. If there were an app that told me which simplified characters have a traditional version that is worth learning for the reasons you mention (they retain more info), I would be interested

[yanrae]

On 10/21/2024 at 1:05 PM, Lu said:

In that case I suggest you study some linguistics, specifically in relation to Chinese characters. That should give you a strong foundation to actually understand how characters are constructed, and it could be really useful in understanding how helpful or unhelpful also learning the traditional versions can be.

 

Thank you so much for your reply and suggestions, and I will try to learn more about linguistics.
Because my major is design, So I wanted to be able to design an app with better-looking visuals and dynamics while keeping its functionality in mind.
So, I'd love to find out what the difficulties are when it comes to learning Chinese characters and if pictographic and ideographic elements can better help learners understand how the characters evolved and how they relate to their meanings. As well as is there a lot of difficulty in learning poetry and idioms as well. Because I want to find the real difficulties and needs of the users to help me better design this learning tool.

[Tomsima]

you should really be looking at Outlier Linguistics to be honest, theyre arguably the leaders in this field at present

[yanrae]

On 10/21/2024 at 3:49 PM, Tomsima said:

you should really be looking at Outlier Linguistics to be honest, theyre arguably the leaders in this field at present

 

Thank you so much,  I am doing more research about Outlier Linguistics. I'm looking at its ability to switch between traditional and simplified characters. I would like to ask if you find this switching between Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese helpful in your understanding of Chinese characters. If I wish I could add some visualisation, some picture visuals, would that be helpful for remembering the Chinese characters as well.

[yanrae]

On 10/21/2024 at 1:27 PM, lordsuso said:

he flashcard app I use has a button to switch between simplified and traditional, I sometimes like to go back and forth to see the changes, but very rarely does it actually help me to better understand the simplified hanzi. If there were an app that told me which simplified characters have a traditional version that is worth learning for the reasons you mention (they retain more info), I would be interested

 

Thank you so much for your reply. I would like the page design to be able to see both simplified and traditional characters, to see the evolution of the font, and if I add some visual images, and dynamic evolution, and the application of the Chinese characters (perhaps from ancient poems or idioms), I'd like to ask if this would help to understand the story of the Chinese characters.

[honglam]

On 10/21/2024 at 5:27 AM, yanrae said:

Chinese characters are a unique type of writing system known as ideograms

I think you messed two similar terms up. Ideograms are symbols that has certain meanings independent of any language. Mathematical notations(including numbers, symbols, etc), a sketch of a fish or a "no-smoking" sign could be examples of ideograms. A Frenchman says "poisson" while a Britishman says "fish" when presented with a sketch of a fish. The recommended term is "Logogram", which tight the meaning of certain symbols with the entities of a certain language.

On 10/21/2024 at 5:27 AM, yanrae said:

That’s why I want to design a learning tool that lets people see the traditional character forms while they learn the simplified ones.

I'm not certain whether you're familiar with the "Sim-Tra transformation" but here's actually a problem: There are multiple standards for both "simplified" and "traditional" Chinese. Chinese Mainland, Malaysia and Singapore have their own systems of simplified Chinese, while Taiwan, Macau and Hong Kong have their standardization systems for Traditional Chinese(I'm only listing those systems for Chinese languages).

---

And personally I doubt whether this design could realise its original aim. There was a discussion of Chinese learning strategy days before. Some members doubt the usefulness of introducing characters so early. SO I really wonder if we should add the knowledge of Sim-Tra transformation to our syllabus - Is that really useful, or just making the path of Chinese learning more tiring? I think a tool for people with at least one system of Chinese Characters who has a need to read both text in Sim. Characters and Trad. Characters would be more helpful. Wait for foreign learners to comment on my thought.

[honglam]

And BTW I'm not sure where you come from but I think there are some basic knowledge of Chinese linguistics you must know. The majority of Characters today are 形声字, and that's why the majority character simplified in 汉字简化方案 are 形声字 - that make sense. Most 象形字 and 指事字 are not simplified in this protocol - they are to simple to be simplified(like 日月木火), so they just remained the same. 

On 10/21/2024 at 6:38 PM, yanrae said:

so that learners can better understand how the characters evolved and how they relate to their meanings.

As for those simplified 象形字 and 指事字, I generally don't really find the simplified version become "more abstract so that people could hardly recognise their origin". Characters has gone through several waves of abstraction before becoming 楷体. 马 and 馬, 鸟 and 鳥, 龟 and 龜, I don't really find the latter ones more "figurative". For me their degree of abstraction are generally the same.

For 形声字, I think the logic behind their simplification are too cumbersome. "A history of Chinese Phonology" is no obligatory course for every student in my department - Department of Chinese Language and literature. The knowledge behind "why 漢 灘 難 share the same phonetic sign" is too profound and useless for even general native speakers.

[abcdefg]

In my efforts to learn Chinese as a foreigner living on the Chinese Mainland in the early 2000's, there were times when having a quick look at the traditional form of a new word would help make its simplified form stick better in my memory. But that was a very minor part of my learning process since all I was seeking was a practical, useable grasp of the language, not a deeper scholar's understanding of how it evolved. 

 

If I had come across an app promising to give me the "Keys to the Kingdom" if only I learned traditional forms and simplified forms side by side as I went along, I would not have been willing to try it. I had enough on my plate as it was, with only the simplified characters, learning their meaning, how to use them clearly in phrases and sentences. Clear communication was my only goal. I would have viewed such an app as a frivolous diversion of my energies, as a squandering of my time no matter how elegant it's construction.

[anonymoose]

I think most foreigners learning Chinese characters have enough difficulty as it is without complicating it by introducing two sets of characters. For those who persevere long enough to gain a workable mastery of Chinese, switching from one set to the other is not difficult. I never especially learned traditional characters, but I am able to read traditional texts without much difficulty.

 

Furthermore, I learned characters without an in depth knowledge of their aetiology. Whilst the stories behind the characters may be a matter of interest to some, I don't think it is necessary (and may even be a distraction) to actually memorising characters. Just knowing the basics such as 氵 comes from 'water' and 亻 comes from 'person' and so on covers most of what is of practical value.