Hakka -- Gypsy of China

[smithsgj]

Since there are Chinese citizens with Mongolian or Manchu stamped on their shenfenzheng, I think that statement requires elaboration, Jive T. I presume you're making some sort of political point, but at the moment I'm not quite sure what.

[trooper]

The Manchu language is "officially" a dead language. I assume this means that the number of speakers is too small to make up a viable community or culture or something like that.

How do the Manchu Chinese feel about the loss of a distinct Manchu culture?

Are the large majority of people living in Dongbei Han Chinese? Do the local Manchu Chinese feel any regret or loss?

[Quest]

It had been lost before modernity. If people grew up speaking Mandarin, they probably would not feel any regret.

[Ian_Lee]

Trooper:

Basically there are no real Manchus in China. Although there are growing numbers of self-recognized Manchus, most likely they do so in order to get fringe benefits, i.e. exclusion from "One Child" policy.

When the Manchus conquered China in 1644, almost every Manchu man and their family (and the Mongols and those Hans resided outside Shanhaikuan) had been conscripted in the 8-Banner Army.

When the Manchus established their rule in China, they dispersed all these 8-Banner Army soldiers to station in every major Chinese city to prevent possible rebellion.

Except a few that still stationed in current day Shenyang, almost every Manchu had resettled in China Proper.

After 250 years, all these "Bannermen" had been assimilated into Chinese.

The famous author Lao She who wrote the novel "Rickshaw Man" was also a Bannerman.

The whole Manchuria was regarded as only a hunting ground for the Manchu nobles. Hans were forbidden to go there and the Manchus didn't want to stay there owing to the severe weather.

But Qing detected the problem when the Czarist Russia took half of Manchuria in 1858 and 1860. After 1870, the Qing Court changed the policy and encouraged Hans to migrate there (Koreans and Japanese were later also encouraged to migrate there after Manchuria fell under Japan's sphere of influence).

[Jive Turkey]

Since there are Chinese citizens with Mongolian or Manchu stamped on their shenfenzheng, I think that statement requires elaboration, Jive T. I presume you're making some sort of political point, but at the moment I'm not quite sure what.

I'm not trying to make a political statement that's broader than this discussion. However, when we discuss traditional culture, then to me "Chinese" means Han. Other than Han people, who else bound their feet? Even the Manchus, who have been more assimilated than Mongol Chinese or other peripheral ethnic groups, never really did binding, right? Let's remember, calling Manchus, Mongols, Tibetans, etc "Chinese" is a modern thing.

[skylee]

Basically there are no real Manchus in China.

I think this is a statement too bold.

I have come across a website www.qiren.cn which shows that there are quite a lot of Manchu people in China (although they may not speak the Manchu language anymore). And there are still many 愛新覺羅氏 (well they would not want to change their name to 金, would they?), 佟氏, 英氏. According to this website, there are still 完顏氏 (!!) in China (but many have changed their names to 王 or 汪). And there is a Wanyan village in Gansu.

[Ian_Lee]

Skylee:

How I define a "real" Manchu is that he/she must keep certain distinct cultural trait.

But what happens to the Manchu people nowadays?

Their language is almost extinct. Only Manchu people in their 70s-80s in some remote villages can speak their own languages. Read:

http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/200008/15/eng20000815_48227.html

(Actually I read another report which states that fewer than 100 people in China can speak Manchus nowadays despite many Manchu language department are established in the universities in the Northeast. The dying language also presents other problems like nobody is able to read those imperial documents written in Manchu language which were archived in the Forbidden City.)

In fact, Xibe -- the Xianbi tribe who lived along the Sungari River that were conquered by the Manchus before 1644 -- were able to keep their cultural tradition when they settled down in Xinjiang in the 18th Century after Emperor Qian Long sent them as expeditionary force to that area.

[skylee]

The dying language also presents other problems like nobody is able to read those imperial documents written in Manchu language which were archived in the Forbidden City.

I think I have read somewhere that all imperial documents of the Qing Dynasty were written in Chinese, Mongolian and Manchu languages. So there should always be a Chinese version of those documents.

Well this is off-topic. Let's return to Hakka.

[Guest Wuliao]

Fen jiu bi he, he jiu bi fen

[nnt]

It had been lost before modernity. If people grew up speaking Mandarin, they probably would not feel any regret.

Mandarin... you said 满大人 man3 da4 ren2 ?

[Quest]

I said 煲冬瓜呀

[nnt]

I said 煲冬瓜呀

I thought it was 不懂话...

[Guest nuer]

To steer back to the topic...I am of Hakka extraction (albeit 7 generations away from china). My parents speak it but I don't even know how to say yes or no.

Pretty pathetic IMO but I think it is more important for me to learn mandarin. Many ppl in China don't even know what Hakka is unless they are older.

Am I the only Hakka female here? Hakka females are supposed to make good wives...which would be pretty untrue in my case.

[Amdir_Flassion]

I like Hakka women, and wouldn't mind marrying one. Of all the Hakka fems I know, most of them are quite DTE in personality, and physically quite healthy. I reckon Hakka women are not as skinny as other Chinese women. Having a bit of meat is a sign of healthy person, and I think healthiness is the best trait of being beautiful.

[Ian_Lee]

Many ppl in China don't even know what Hakka is unless they are older.

Do you mean people in Beijing (where you reside) don't even know who Hakka is or never taste any Hakka food?

Seems kind of ignorant.

[Ian_Lee]

There is an interesting article comparing the circumstances of Hakka people in Hong Kong and Taiwan:

http://blog.sina.com.cn/u/4bbcd10a010008zf

Hakka population:

Taiwan -- 5 million (20% of the population)

HK -- 2 million (30% of the population) [i think it is a gross over-estimate]

Hakka ethnic and cultural identity:

Taiwan -- very strong

HK -- -- completely assimilated by HK identity

Status of Hakka language:

Taiwan -- official language

HK -- regarded as vulgar rural language

Trend of Hakka people:

Taiwan -- from hiding in the closet to walking out of the closet

HK -- from hiding in the closet to complete disappearance

Hakka TV & Radio station:

Taiwan -- 3 (1 under construction) + dozen

HK -- none

[Mugi]

20% of the population of Taiwan seems a very high figure - I've never seen it quoted outside the range of 9-15% before. The most common figure I've seen is 13%.

[djwebb2004]

An interesting question is whether there are any unusual features in the Mandarin spoken by the Man, reflecting interference from their ancestral language. I am thinking along the lines of Hiberno-English. I am running a Yahoo forum learning Irish Gaelic and it is frequent that some part of Irish grammar can be explained by reference to Hiberno-English, eg "what are you after doing?" meaning "what have you just been doing?", which is a direct translation from Irish Gaelic etc. There are many examples, from pronunciation, use of words to grammar. It would be surprising if there were no signs whatsoever that the Man Mandarin has some features of Manchu - but maybe Chinese scholars subsume such features under the rubric of "dongbei dialect" without further investigation?