Placement of 了in 他们死在了冬天. Why after 在 and not after 死?

[Aslaksen]

I'm struggling with understanding the placement of 了 in 他们死在了冬天. It is from a story in the Du Chinese app. Why is 了 not placed right after the verb 死? Or is 在 part of the verb? I've asked several native speakers, but they haven't been able to give me a clear explanation. Thanks!

[Tomsima]

in speech 了 often 'hops' out of position because native speakers treat 死在 as a compound verb, even though it's not really. This makes the rhythm sound nicer too, as directly after the verb it can sound abrupt (and perhaps even suggest a potential sequence of events?) At least that's my best guess! I asked a few native speakers and they also couldn't explain why! I'm sure there are some here that will be able to though...

[becky82]

I remember asking this years ago.  I think it's to be consistent with other cases where complements are used:

• 听到了声音 (rather than 听了到声音)
• 看见了他 (rather than 看了见他)
• 读完了书 (rather than 读了完书)
• 安排好了一切 (rather than 安排了好一切)
• 说错了什么 (rather than 说了错什么)
• 忘在了出租车上 (rather than 忘了在出租车上)

[Aslaksen]

Thanks, Becky! Very useful link! I guess I my problems was that I'm not used to reading about dying, so I wasn't familiar with 死在 and thought of 在 as preposition and not as a complement of result. I would not have been similarly confused by 读完了 or 听到了. 

 

I looked at your YouTube channel. Loved your math videos. I'm a professor of math/math education.

[lordsuso]

I didnt know 在 was also a complement result, pleco doesn't even show that use! very interesting

[Aslaksen]

Yes, checking Pleco for 死在 was of course the first thing I did.

[Tomsima]

I think that's because it's technically not a resultative, it's just treated that way in casual speech (or as I suggested, it's treated as a fossilized compound). This is then transferred back into writing for a more 'natural' sound to the writing.

 

I have books at work to check this kind of thing, but currently out of office...the mystery continues!

[EnergyReaper]

Why not just remove 了? It's okay to say 他们死在冬天, 他们死在战场, 他们死在海上, etc.

[honglam]

On 1/14/2025 at 11:29 AM, EnergyReaper said:

Why not just remove 了? It's okay to say 他们死在冬天, 他们死在战场, 他们死在海上, etc.

Well, the problem seems to be "why we could insert a 了 here" rather than "whether this 了 could be removed or not".

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I searched for relevant researches and find that this phenomenon is actually very complicated and controversial, involving a procedure called grammaticalisation.  Many linguists are still disputing on it. Talking too much about those academic disputations doesn't help anyone with Chinese learning so I try to explain it with my own words here. In this structure, 在 was originally a preposition showing the position, but during the evolution of the Chinese language, sometimes this preposition gradually became a word part and formed a new combined verb with the original verb before it, in this example 死. Actually many verbs can join in this combining procedure and form a new verb. Here are some examples: 他坐在了椅子上 他藏在了草丛里 他把想法写在了纸上。It sounds like a phrasal verb(like in English), but here the preposition still have some original function (asking for a noun as an adverbial).

And by the way, take 死在 as an example, in some sentences it should be regarded as a single compound verb, yet sometimes it still should be regarded as a verb and a preposition too(since 在 is still halfway toward finally becoming a pure verb suffix).

[Aslaksen]

Thanks, Honglam. So are you essentially saying that I should think of 死在 as a verb, rather than 在 as a complement? As I said, my first instinct was to look it up in Pleco to see if it was listed as a verb.

[honglam]

It is very possible that those structure won't be included in any dictionary. But linguistically it should be regarded as a verb (or you shouldn't attach a 了 to it). Or you may just treat it as a verb suffix, but you should not put it after every verb.

I conclude some important points for foreign Chinese learners from the article I read below:

V stand for verb of one character, VV stand for verb of two characters, N stand for noun of one character, NN stand for noun of two characters.

Then generally, V在N, VV在N, V在NN, VV在NN, V在了NN, VV在了NN are more likely to be acceptable. You may face those structures when you read articles and novels written by native speakers. But I strongly recommend you to avoid using this kind of expression when you speak or write, since the utilisation of them are strongly depended on a native sense.