THE STORY OF MY LEARNING CHINESE

[Celso Pin]

my experience with chinese is in the first class i was fluent to say: wo xihuan pijiu; wo he pijiu...(sorry, my pinyin fonts sucks) or else, everything that you need to survive in Beijing:mrgreen:

[self-taught-mba]

self-taught-mba, so how do you like to learn your characters. If you are just learning recognition (so you can read them, and use your spoken [pinyin] to input the right ones into the computer like Chinese normally do), how do you go about this? Do you just stare at the character and that is enough for recognition-memory? or do you write it out a couple of times too?

I may write it out just once to know that I can copy it correctly. Generally not. Using a flash card system then building new words into context quickly is the first step. Next, start typing, this forces you to choose the character (easier b/c you know what you intend to say and there are limited choices). In another post (or article) I'll explain some of the more techical psych. theories behind developing effective learning. Next, read in context. This again is where the computer software(s) come into play. Also the good only sources: newsinchinese etc.

More to it but gotta run.

[self-taught-mba]

That was a 10 page article in Microsoft Word (been working on that one for a while).

I'm a little surprised that one sentence in the entire article, written only for effect (but also a common belief or at least a misconception), has been chosen as the focus of my article.

I was not intending to start a discussion thread about French.

[self-taught-mba]

I have divided this task into 2: 1) Learn more words and characters passively - 20 characters a day, 2) Learn characters thoroughly - 5 characters a day. It's all approximate, of course. Mind you, I've got a full-time job and family commitments.

This is my point exactly, (when I was learning I was a full-time MBA student and also a landlord, plus volunteer work). While our capacity for learning may be limited by our circumstances, I generally find that your formula/ratio holds true or is even more extreme for many people. That is:

Time spent to learn how to write one character from memory / Time spent to learn how to recognize one character = 4 / 1

I've even heard this range from a ratio of 2 / 1 up to 20 / 1. (I feel a poll coming on)

[self-taught-mba]

I had rather similar experiences both in the US ...

I find many people have this type of experiences, but it's good to hear that I'm not alone.

I do question your seeming refusal to learn to write characters, though.

it is not so much a refusal, as it is not a priority. It would be nice if I could learn, however I cannot afford the time and I choose not to spend the time doing so at this point. Once I learn to effectively communicate, I may eventually take it up.

Granted, I haven't had the need to handwrite many things in my two years living in China

,

Exactly.

but I find that, particularly with more complex characters that are very similar to ones I already know, learning to write them gels everything in my brain. It has also been easier for me to read handwritten Chinese (which is something I commonly have to do) since I've started writing.

These are good points. Many people can write them a couple of times and it will help without having to literally memorize them though. I sometimes will jot down a character or two especially if I need to understand the difference between them. It all goes back to the theory of trade-offs. However, forcing students to memorize hundreds of random characters especially in the beginning years is not very effective, especially given the modern times.

Obviously your method works for you and I'm not trying to dissuade you from something that produces results, just throwing in my $0.02.

No offense taken. It is only by discussing differences that improvement

can take place.

(Something, that we often see here on the discussion board but does not find its way into the Chinese educational system, [at least on the ground level (I know academic articles will address it but it is seldom applied or has a very slow trickle-down effect) That is my whole point: the Chinese educational system, in general, has not taken a hard look at itself and asked "how can we improve things, how can we do things differently?" There is no asking the question: "is this the best way?" ]

[geraldc]

I seem to be the opposite to most of you guys. I like structured lessons, and working through books chapter by chapter.

I found some of the HSK preparation books very good, eg they introduced vocab gradually, and the new words were all linked to the main theme of the chapter etc. Every time a new chapter was started, you'd just copy out each new character until it filled a page in your squared exercise book. In the process of writing out each character, you'd be forced to break the character up into its radicals etc which also made them easier to learn. When you go back and revise the chapter months later, you can still remember what the characters are as you can remember the passage, and the particular story or theme, so your mind fills in the blanks. I always found flash cards too narrow, as in real life you have cues to remind you of characters you've forgotten, measure words and related vocabulary etc.

[kudra]

Something, that we often see here on the discussion board but does not find its way into the Chinese educational system, [at least on the ground level (I know academic articles will address it but it is seldom applied or has a very slow trickle-down effect) That is my whole point: the Chinese educational system, in general, has not taken a hard look at itself and asked "how can we improve things, how can we do things differently?" There is no asking the question: "is this the best way?"

I don't actually see why we should take the Chinese educational system to be the model for teaching Westerners Chinese. What should be the model? Here are a few rumors ...

The so called "Yale method" was developed as part of a crash program to teach Chinese to the US Army(I think).

The rumor was that the best Chinese language school in Taiwan was the one run by the CIA.

goggle for Defense Language Institute Monterey.

What I am getting at is that the US govt probably has a lot more exerience teaching Westerners Chinese than the Chinese govt. I don't see any way to easily tap into that experience.

[chenpv]

a few phrases that I can use to flirt with girls/meet people etc..........A few friends teach me some dirty words.

This is true and interesting. Maybe men are less emotional and talkative, so unlike women whose chatterness could wake the dead, men most probably choose either to stay quiet or to keep the topic stick to sex or sports while talking with eath other. I dont know others opinions, but I am always amazed by the profound chinese vocabulary in sex mastered by male foreigners. So I just assume this is the way how male learners pick up another language.

Another thing I have been long curious about is truth that the most male foreigners' Chinese sound feminine. (Sorry, I dont want to offend anyone) I am not saying that their voices are girlish but the verbals, some sentence patterns sound girlish. Take the following as examples:'哇塞！' ‘你干什么你！’. Personally, I think those expressions are girls' privilege, and it is really uneasy to see a male counterpart using them again and again. But the worst thing is that we chinese dont know if it is proper to point that out------- what if a foreigner get the correction the wrong way and freak out? Most of the time, we just let it go and try to get inured to the fact. So I just wonder if male foreigners are mostly likely surrounded by bunches of chinese girls and then unconsciously get their chinese that way?

• In less than two weeks I learned to read approximately 600 or so characters that are in the first practical Chinese reader—I do this with flash card systems and software and training aids

• I try to fill in any gaps that I missing their self-study methods' date=' and using online resources/software[/quote'] I admire that, especially a kind of perseverance shining from the words. I believe, too, this kind of character is common in foreign learners, since one of you in this forum told me privately that he devoted 15-18 hours a day to learn chinese and another one of you in this forum wrote me a private message in amazingly beautiful chinese and many many others showed an astounding talent on chinese.

I am a perfectionist

So do I. I know being a perfectionist means that you make yourself overloaded on mind and worry about if you can achieve the goal you had set there. IMHO, learning how to write chinese characters is important. but it is just matter of time. You can use pinyin at first like what we did when we were learning our native language. Maybe, gradually, you need to substitue them with chinese characters. Also, I believe more handwriting exercises rather than typing helps

you at the primary stage of chinese learning, insomuch as that chinese is hieroglyphic like pictures. Only through drawing them can you get a better understanding of chinese and recognise as many characters as possible.

[Joei Villarama]

to self-taught mba, thanks a lot for your stories and tips on learning chinese. i am struggling through my first month here in china and learning the language at the tianjin foreign studies university. i enjoyed reading about your strategies because i am facing similar challenges. i joined the class late october and the semester started september so i found myself in a class way behind others who can already read characters, etc. i still can't understand the teacher, though. my speaking skills is ahead of my listening skill which is the worst. we have 4 classes - one in speaking, reading, writing and listening. i am overwhelmed with the amount of characters i need to learn to be able to catch up with my classmates so i found reading about your experience inspiring. thanks and hope to hear more.

[agentzi]

I have to agree with your description of The Chinese Class in America. This is my experience too. Here in SF, CA, most of the students are ABCs, and some very fluent; yep, as you said probably in the market for an easy "A" (one can't blame them though), and several speak better Mandarin than English. The instructors, I believe are teaching they way they were taught - rote, repetition anad memorization, albeit with newer materials/books. But they hardly know anything about english grammar and/or computers; hence unable to leverage these fields in their instruction. ( in addition, the faculty have decided to emphasize traditional characters, complicating things more; also probably due to their background.)

But that's the way it is.... and I don't think a bunch of Confucius Institutes are going to change teaching methods quickly either. I know now there's a lot of propaganda about "millions of foreigners studying Chinese" but I wonder what proportion of 'foreign' students give up before becoming fluent, i.e., excluding overseas chinese (華僑) ?

thanks for the posting and good luck with your studies

[Anerron]

Self taught, I don't understand why you chose an academic setting when clearly your objectives are not academic.

If it's communication skills you're after, may I recommend the Bridge school? It has an excellent conversational course with plenty of useful vocabulary.

[kudra]

... most of the students are ABCs' date=' and some very fluent; yep, ...

[/quote']

Columbia breaks up students with "heritage" background and those without.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ealac/courses_main.html#CHINESE

Also, for more pronunciation practice, and circumstantial evidence of a place that seems to take pronunciation seriously, based on the online materials see

http://classes.yale.edu/chns130/tatutorial/index.html

[self-taught-mba]

I don't actually see why we should take the Chinese educational system to be the model for teaching Westerners Chinese. What should be the model? ....

The so called "Yale method" was developed as part of a crash program to teach Chinese to the US Army(I think).

....

goggle for Defence Language Institute Monterey.

What I am getting at is that the US govt probably has a lot more exerience teaching Westerners Chinese than the Chinese govt. I don't see any way to easily tap into that experience.

I have had similar thoughts. Having extensive interaction with both Chinese and Taiwanese classmates, I really believe that the Chinese model doesn’t work well with their own students (teaching English), so why is it that is also applied to foreigners?

You are correct, some of the most efficient schools have been formed by intelligence community/military; they tailor their programs to the American perspective.

How to tap into the knowledge: I used to be in the military, and I’ve met people who attended the Defense language Institute. I also have met many soldiers who went through other Defense language programs and had great results. I have been thinking about starting my own school since I’m really not pleased with what I’ve seen and I really have been trying to meet people that have had good experiences, many of these include people from some of these institutions. In fact, when I went back to America this past month I made sure to meet with a girl who had studied there (a former interrogator now getting a master’s). If I do start a school I want to add some of these people as advisers.

I also think the Yale method is a fairly good method, especially in the past.

[self-taught-mba]

Columbia breaks up students with "heritage" background and those without.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ealac/cou...n.html#CHINESE

Also, for more pronunciation practice, and circumstantial evidence of a place that seems to take pronunciation seriously, based on the online materials see

http://classes.yale.edu/chns130/tatutorial/index.html

Yes, I've heard good things about this program (a friend went there), and I believe it is one of the better ones in the United States. It is really a good idea to separate the "heritage students" from the others, because

1. This is the fair thing to do, they don't have an unfair advantage
   
2. if you mix them it is the equivalent of mixing different levels
   
3. the two groups require different teaching styles and may have a different frame of reference
   

The second list that is a great find! You should add that to the links section (somewhat sparse right now)

[self-taught-mba]

I dont know others opinions, but I am always amazed by the profound chinese vocabulary in sex mastered by male foreigners. So I just assume this is the way how male learners pick up another language

I never really made it a point to learn dirty words but they do stick in your head. There is a very logical psychological and physiological reason for that: things that tend to be associated with emotion (things that shock you, scare you, make you laugh, smile or even aroused) are stored in a different part of the brain, and thus are embedded deeper if you will. See the site here: http://www.becomehealthynow.com/ebookprint.php?id=825

an excellent more technical sight here:

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/hs/medical/neuralsci/2004/slides/37_LectureSlides.pdf

The classic example of this is everyone being able to remember where they were the moment they found out about JFK’s assassination: http://www.brainchannels.com/Memory/emotion/emotion.html

[ophion]

Thank you for typing all of that, self-taught-mba! I found the posts to be interesting, edifying, and vindicatory.

[LiYuanXi]

I realised a lot of chinese are really keen in learning english. Everyday, i received many authorization requests in my icq from chinese and when i talk to them, they told me that they just wanted to practice conversing in english with me. Sometimes, they will ask me lots of grammatical stuff too which I can't explain.

On the other hand, i don't receive as many messages from foreigners who want to practice conversing in chinese in icq. Hence, i think that the chinese are really aggressive when it comes to learning english.

[self-taught-mba]

I am rejoining the forum after a couple months away. Thank you for the discussion and feedback. Sorry for late responses. I started writing them in a Word document but have not had the time to post. I have been a busy little bee recently, as a future post (already written but not posted) will indicate.

[self-taught-mba]

I found the posts to be interesting, edifying, and vindicatory

Thank you for your support. I am glad someone relates.

[self-taught-mba]

Self taught, I don't understand why you chose an academic setting when clearly your objectives are not academic.

If it's communication skills you're after, may I recommend the Bridge school? It has an excellent conversational course with plenty of useful vocabulary.

First of all that begs the question of what exactly this means “your objectives are not academic”. If I enrolled in a conversational Chinese course for Chinese 201 at a college, what is the purpose? Chinese 101? 201? 401? Chinese Classic Literature?

Is the objective of learning not to possess knowledge? Languages, by their very definition are a means of communication. Therefore, the study of language should be communication (outside of research/history/linguistics purposes). I was not engaging in a research class or a history of character etymology, Instead I was in "Chinese Language 203-204" (My emphasis). If one chooses to study other things (research/history/linguistics), I have absolutely no objection to this.

My question raised is this: Given that the stated purpose of many of these courses is to engage in meaningful communication or "language learning", is the result matching the stated objective? And is it doing so in the best way possible?

I’m not sure as to which course you are referring to, but I will say that the course was the only option at my university, and as far as Worldlink goes, as I said, they told me one thing and then did another: namely that I would not have to write plus other things (balanced curriculum and such). Furthermore, I believe they over-sold their school and misrepresented things.

From the Worldlink web site:

www.study-in-china.com/index.html

“WLE's leading Chinese Language immersion programs are specially designed to provide the most comprehensive and balanced curriculum”

>>>If balanced means Ting1xie3 everyday and little speaking. (Forced writing mini-tests)

“Accelerated teaching methods allow students at lower proficiency levels to acquire language skills required for effective communication in a short period of time, and advanced students to gain expression proficiency at an abstract level.”

>>>Which accelerated teaching methods? They simply use the BLCU press books.

“The Mandarin Chinese programs are held in China's leading universities in Beijing.”

>>>BCLA is a leading institution?

www.study-in-china.com/chinese_language.html

“Listening and speaking skills are emphasized to enable participants to attain communicative proficiency.”

>>>Simply not true from my experience.

"Core Language Classes are held at Beijing's leading language academic institution, the Academy of Foreign Language Study (AFLS)."

>>>”leading language academic institution” pretty amazing for something that has just started. (Admittedly, I attended BCLA not AFLS. Although they said the same thing about BLCA. Furthermore, amazingly enough, this “new” school is staffed by much the same people and also is still Worldlink. Seems like more of a name change to me. But that’s right, other “leading academic institutions” like Yale and Harvard seem to change their name all the time too right?)

"The Academy has been selected because of its emphasis on accelerated learning, with small classes of 5 to 8 students, and its outstanding language curriculum."

>>>This is the statement that I have the most trouble with. Being trained to AICPA (American Institution of Certified Public Accountants) standards, I have a big problem with what I believe is the company covering up relationships. The use of the passive tense “has been selected” indicates that the “Academy” (and previously BLCA) is not actually part of Worldlink, that instead they are recommending services rather than being a provider and giving the appearance of an outside recommendation. In accounting and auditing, when a company fails to disclose insider transactions/deals it is sometimes called negligence. At worst it can be called fraud and illegal. Of course this is not accounting, and despite the fact this is what Enron did, I am not passing legal judgment here, only opinion. But I don’t appreciate the fact that they try to make it look like they are “selecting” an institution for its quality when it actuality they are the owner or operator of that institution.

“The Academy's programs have been recognized and accredited by universities worldwide. US universities such as Stanford University, Fordham University and Ohio State University have granted credit transfers to their students studying at the Academy.”

>>>This has happened already? Or are they referring to the predecessor school, BLCA? Can the predecessor school pass on its qualifications/accreditation history while simultaneously not being disclosed as the predecessor school?

Anyway off on a tangent there a little. So why did I attend them? Because based on what they said, it was suitable. I only found out later that they didn’t do as they said. And I didn’t know about Brigde School (although I wish I had.) But I am referring (original articles/post) to the general trends in the WAY the Chinese teach foreigners.

Disclosure: Since I originally wrote this, I have decided and worked to start my own school. (a subsequent post will explain this) I am not here to bash the competition, but as a customer I have my right to voice my opinion and I refuse to give that up even if I do start something on my own. Apparently, as I recently discovered from this web site: Study Chinese in China - Opinions and Feedback - A Review of WorldLink Education ( http://www.worldlinkedu.org/ ), I am not the only person that has been dissatisfied.

It is not just Worldlink but a whole host of other schools here that do the same. I initially used them and since it was asked, I am explaining “why I chose them”: because I was misled about many things. It was this experience (and many others and after speaking with many) that led me to the decision to attempt to start a different kind of school. I don’t really consider them “competition” anyway, because my focus is different. But requires disclosure for the sake of fairness. Either way I have left this post unchanged from my original intent save a few voice recognition/grammar/spelling/formatting fixes. (but you be the judge of the merits of my claims/argument about the trouble with programs here in China and the US).