Beijing vs. Kunming

[Desmond]

My friend and I are planning to go to China this summer. Upon trying to figure out which would be the best place to go, we're narrowed it down to two (distinctly) different places, each of which satisfy different concerns:

I was hoping you guys would be able to shed some light, and some opinions and facts, on the matter.

Studying Mandarin: Although one of my primary goes is to study Mandarin, my friend (as well as 2 other friends who will most likely join us) doesn't not care as much. Beijing seems like it may be better for them, as there is more English, and for me, as it hosts the "root" of Mandarin. But would I be able to learn Mandarin in Kunming as easily as in Beijing? Would the fact that there's more English impede my efforts? I found that when I studied in Hangzhou this summer, although my classtime was fine, I found the Hangzhou accent rather difficult to understand when I went shopping.

Weather: I'm from Canada, and would love to spend a winter away from the snow! Kunming seems like it has one of the nicest climates there is.

Lifestyle: Beijing is bigger, so there's probably more variety of stuff to see and do. But how is Kunming in that aspect? Does Beijing feel to crowded at times? Does Kunming feel too small at times?

Culture: Beijing is probably more metropolitain. So is that a good thing or a bad thing? Does anybody feel, at times, that Beijing is "not Chinese enough?" I know that's a pretty general comment, but I spent a few days in Beijing after being in Hangzhou, and with all the English and foreigners... I just didn't get the same feel. However, that was only 5 days and I was touring.... like just another foreigner. Does Kunming give more of a "real" Chinese experience? Or is it really just what you make of it yourself?

Thanks for your comments! My pull right now is more strongly towards Beijing

[Desmond]

Sorry guys, forgot one more point!

Living expenses: We'll be coming mostly with saved-up money, and we won't rely heavily on money made in China itself (I want to take some Chinese classes, maybe teach English but not for a huge number of hours per week).

So then, should I give Kunming another point for being cheaper? How much cheaper?

[jin anqi]

Desmond,

I cannot give you anything on Kunming, but Beijing I can fill you in a little. I loved Beijing. I spent six months there and had a great time. You actually have a lot of chances to practice your Madarin. It is relatively easy to understand. If you go mostly to the areas of expats then you won't run into much of a language problem. They do put a lot of er on the end of words such as for door: Men (门）they would say Mar (门儿）. I, however love the Beijing accent.

The crowds. You will notice it mostly at the bigger department stores and other large shopping districts. But you can go at times unnoticed because Beijingers are used to westerners. When I first got to Beijing I felt closed in but after a few days I didn't noticed the mass of people that most foreigners envision.

Beijing has been infiltrated by the wonderful Amercan Corportion (toungue in cheek), Walmart, KFC, Pizza Hut, and of course Starbucks. If you go to the preserved parts of the city around Tian an men you will be immersed in the culture. My favourite place is Liu Li Cheng. This is the ancient meeting place of the literati. Also walk through the Hu Tongs. These will take you back.

As for teaching, the best is to offer private tutoring, you could get between 50 and 100 kuai an hour. You could also try a language exchange (huxiang bangzhu).

As far as expense, I am not sure about private apartments. You have to be careful because as a foreigner they will charge you a lot more than a Chinese resident. Upwards of $1000 kuai. If you do formal English teaching, depending on the school, the school will supply you with a room. You can do a search on the web for these types of opportunities.

For food. If you stick with the small Chinese restaurants that do not cater to foreigners then you could easily get by on less then 40 kuai a day. That is about 5 American dollars. (don't know what the canadian exchange rate is) Also if you use travelers checks you will actually get a better exchange rate at the bank than if you exchanged hard currency. Go to the Bank of China. Their ATMs have English.

Let's see what else. They have lots of internet cafes. Very reasonable I think. Public trasport. You will never get lost. If you think you are just hail a cab. ( have your home based memorized in the correct tones, you can't go wrong. )

Weather. Summer can be hot and a little humid. I only say that because that is what my friends would say. I didn't notice. I just ate a lot of fresh water melon and pineapple and had no problem with the climate. Beijings' weather is like the MidWest in America if that helps at all.

Well, you may already know have the stuff I have written. I hope there is some stuff that is helpful. If you have any additional questions I will check the site and give my input.

I apologize for the extremely long answer there is just so much to cover.

Good luck

[hakkaboy]

Desmond, there are plenty of places to visit near Kunming, as it is the capital of the province with the most ethic minorities in China. You can visit Dali, Lijiang, ShangriLa, Xishuangbanna, Ruili etc - all in the Lonely Planet Guidebook. And the weather is great. And there is also Yunnan cheese - rubing!

[Lu]

Studying Mandarin: Beijing is the better place for this. More (and I think better) schools, and Beijinghua is almost the same as putonghua, whereas Kunminghua is very different.

Weather: I've only been in Kunming for one day in February, and the weather was great. Beijing is very cold in the winter (although it rarely snows), the weather in Kunming is nice in the winter. In the summer it's very hot in Beijing, I don't know about Kunming, might be even hotter.

Lifestyle: As I said, I've only been in Kunming for one day. I liked it a lot, good atmosphere. But it might get boring if you stay there for a longer time. On the other hand, Yunnan is a great place for travelling, so if you have a few days' time you can make trips to Dali, Lijiang, Xishuangbanna, the stone forest, etc.

Beijing can be crowded, but also very peaceful. If you go to the Great Wall and the Forbidden city you'll see crowds and tourists, if you go to Houhai you'll see old men playing chess at a lake, and in the alleys near the drum tower it's also very peacefull.

Culture: Having been in Taipei I can say that Beijing is very, very Chinese. Yes there are some foreigners and McDonald'ses, but the US has overseas Chinese and Chinese restaurants and it hasn't made the place any Chineser, has it.

Living expenses: Kunming is cheaper than Beijing, but I can't say how much. It also depends on where you eat and shop.

Wherever you go, I wish you a great time!

[Desmond]

Thanks for the comments guys!

So what is the Mandarin actually like in Kunming? As learning is of utmost importance to me, it's a concern. Although I loved Hangzhou to pieces, it wasn't the ideal place to learn while I was there, and that frustrated me a bit. It may be more of a place to go after I have a more firm grasp of the Chinese language and can understand different accents more, but I found it hard when I learned one style of Mandarin in the classroom, and heard another on the streets.

[Desmond]

So if Beijing is very Chinese, then how is Taipei? That was another place I was considering going, but it has been pushed down the list a bit (but I still have to go there someday!). There are so many foreigners there, has it really affected the culture?

[atitarev]

I haven't been to China yet but if I did for learning Mandarin, I would choose a place where it's spoken. Why not go to a smaller town in the North. I think of Qingdao (青岛). I wonder what it is like there? Spoken Mandarin, climate, prices and opportunities?

[Xiao Kui]

Kunming's awesome but for Mandarin you're better off in Beijing. People of course can speak Mandarin, but Kunminghua's the first language, and most people's first choice when it comes to communication. I lived in KM 2 yrs. and I love it, but I think my Mandarin would be better if I had lived in BJ. Why don't you guys take a week or 2 for travel to check out Yunnan tho, cuz it's a great travel destination. Or come back to China and visit it on another trip.

[chenpv]

So, it seems that few people are considering learning chinese in Xi'an......

[Desmond]

Chenpv,

I've actually been to Xi'an for a couple days, it seemed to be a pretty nice place. What would you say are the upsides and downsides of Xi'an?

[wfujkramer]

I lived in kunming for a year, and i am currently in beijing about once a month... while i haev not studied there, i can sure as hell comment on the mandarin and atsmosphere.

my vote goes to kunming.

You know that kunming is (much, much much much much much much) cheaper, has better weather, etc etc. so I will only comment on learning mandarin.

1) I think you can learn great mandarin in beijing just as easy as you can in kunming. i studied for a year in kunming, then decided that I wanted to get really, really good pronunciation so I headed up to Harbin (where I am now) which is the ultimate place for good mandarin. the spoken language on the street beats the hell out of beijing and kunming combined.

and guess what? everyone finds my pronuncation to be really fantastic... and there are tons of people who have done all of their studying here, surrounded by perfect mandarin, that have really awful pronuncation. so, it shows you can (or can't) learn good chinese irrespective of your location.

2) I personally believe that the key to good mandarin is that you NEED private teachers. your university teachers won't have time to painstakingly correct every sound that comes out of your mouth, and your friends will be too embarassed to correct you, or will want to focus on enjoying their beer and letting the conversation flow. so you need one on one teachers to slap you in the mouth every time your pronunication is not perfect.

That is where kunming is great - a huge surplus of private teachers between 15 and 30 kuai an hour. try to find that in beijing. half of my chinese friends in beijing make 60, or even as much as 100 kuai an hour! If you're doing 20 hours a week one on one, which is what I do, that can make a huge difference in your budget.

3) Practicing chinese - Your logic would tell you that beijing would be a good choice because the local people speak good mandarin. However, take into account the fact that it is so, so easy to use english in beijing when your language skills are being challeneged (which I think is the most important part of practicing - stretching your ability level). it's so easy to go to the bar and find all the chinese people speaking english to each other!

In kunming the advantage that you have is that the foreign scene is very, very, very concentrated around the wen lin jie / yunnan university area. When you want to speak english, go to the cafes and bars there. when you want to get away from it all, walk 2 streets in any direction and you'll really be in china..... whereas beijing, to me, feels much harder to get away from "the scene"

Anyway, the point is, don't choose a place to study based on the local accent thinking that if you don't study in beijing your chinese will be undecipherable. I think all university professors speak the same mandarin no matter where you are (they have to pass an exam). and most students mostly speak chinese in class and then english the rest of the day. so if that's the case, it doesn't really matter where you are. Here in Harbin the teachers are just the same as they were in kunming. the only difference i have is when I hit the streets. Using harbin is the criterion example of perfect mandarin, I personally think kunming comes in closer than beijing anyway! but you're hearing that from somebody that absolutely hates the beijing er yin "pirate talk" accent. some people love it.

[Desmond]

Thanks for the huge reply! You really helped me shed some light on the matter.

I just have another question for you if you don't mind answering: There's a good chance that when I come to China, I won't be taking classes but relying on my learning by hitting the streets. As well, I find that I don't need to worry about my pronunciation, but mostly just my experience speaking to people instead of hitting the books.

So that's my main concern, as I have been to Hangzhou and found that the mandarin on the streets was very often quite hard to understand (it was quite variable depending on the actual person I was speaking with). So I was worried I would come to Kunming and then find myself faced with having a hard time practicing mandarin on a day to day basis...

Could you shed some light on the matter? Thanks so much!

[chenpv]

Chenpv,I've actually been to Xi'an for a couple days, it seemed to be a pretty nice place. What would you say are the upsides and downsides of Xi'an?

Sorry, I just found this when I was tidying my subscribed threads today.

Well, It seems that I didnt make myself clear. , Desmond, I am sorry, I didnt mean to make it specific or question you, but just sighing a little bit ........ I just feel sorry that most of people (Chinese included) regard Xian a moribund ancient city or a tour resort.

I just cant think of any upsides of Xi'an except history, culture background, emblem of China, assiduity which dont play a necessary role in lauguage learning. I do think of many of downsides, such as keeping down in propaganda, occasional sandstorms in the spring, seemingly orthodoxy etc. (Kidding.)

Desmond, dont be put off by my post, you deserve to go to desirable place corresponding to your standards.

[Desmond]

I understand how you may feel though, as my city (of 1 million people) is a nice place, but nobody even knows where it is. Even the next closest city, of the same population, is much more known and a much bigger travel destination for foreigners.

But hey, as long as people are visiting my country, I'm happy!

[chenpv]

I understand how you may feel though, as my city (of 1 million people) is a nice place, but nobody even knows where it is.

Thanks, Desmond, so which city are you in right now?

[Desmond]

In Western Canada

[Lu]

's That a city??

[Desmond]

Haha, I wrote my city down before, but then realized that I didn't feel like keeping it on there. Not that it would really matter in the end, but seeing enough people on here saying they didn't feel like telling people information that's too personal, I felt like I may as well get rid of it.

In reality, the population of western Canada is still smaller than some cities in China! So in a sense, yes, it IS a city! ;)

[chenpv]

Desmond, I saw those. Well, I heard of the 'E' but not the 'C':mrgreen: