Speaking a "standard" accent vs "non-standard accent"

[LiYuanXi]

necroflux, that's a real funny interpretation of 儿! *LOL*

在那(sexy legs)... 有间庙(sexylegs) ,庙(sexylegs)里有个老道(sexylegs).

[Desmond]

I'm still laughing about those sexy beijing legs! I've already had friends on my MSN ask what the heck I'm talking about.

I think this has finally solidified my reasoning for learning simplified... cause I just can't get sexy legs out of 兒 (although that character still looks really cool)

[Mai Kairong]

I speak a non-standard dialect of chinese called badmandarin. It's actually quite widespread in the U.S.

Seriously though, a good friend of mine who I practice my Chinese with is from Taiwan and my Chinese prof, who is pretty strict about the Beijing accent being the only one worth using, tells me I tend to say things like a Taiwanese person. That's fine with me, because I prefer the Taiwanese accent, and since I plan to live in Taiwan starting next year, I assume my accent will only get stronger.

[necroflux]

Mai, my thoughts exactly. Everyone I know is in Taiwan, and that's where I'm going, so not sounding as if I'm from Beijing is completely unimportant. I'm going to Taiwan next fall myself, see you there!

BTW any chance you could post some "badmandarin dialect" examples for us all to learn from? I'm interested to know what it sounds like..

[Quest]

And hey we all know Beijing is the fashion capitol of China,

since when??!

[wushijiao]

At least in the mainland, I think it would be fairly difficult for a learner to speak with a non-standard accent. All tapes, TV, radio is in standard. Also, most people foreigners will speak to (educated urban people) speak fairly standard. Personally, I would love to be able to speak a genuine 地方话, but the vast majority of my Chinese input is in standard.

Speaking in public with a strong local flavour is powerful comic relief, but I'm wary of the stereotype 'fluent foreigner = cross-talk show'

I see that point. But do the foreigners who have impressive, locally accented Chinese always end up doing crosstalk? Or, do foreigners who do crosstalk always end up having impressive Chinese? I wonder.

At my high school graduation, a French girl, one of my classmates, was scheduled to give a graduation speech. Her English was a bit hard to understand and quite heavily accented, to say the least. After spending weeks with the some of the teachers, going over her speech word by word, correcting every pronunciation mistake, she finally gave a speech in which her English had improved tremendously. So, I wonder if the rigor of doing crosstalk, in which all pronunciation and tones must be perfect for the jokes to work, is the hidden secret to success for people like Dashan.

And, I have to add, I think the fashion capital of China is probably Shanghai. Although Beijing girls might try to convince you othersie.

[Quest]

And, I have to add, I think the fashion capital of China is probably Shanghai. Although Beijing girls might try to convince you othersie.

Is Hong Kong included?

[necroflux]

Haha okay I admit I pulled that one from nowhere to support my theory.. I thought there was a good chance of Beijing being the fashion capitol of China but I really have no clue whatsoever. My apologies for the spread of misinformation on these forums. (sh)

[carlo]

On the Shanghai underground you can actually see young ladies grooming and checking themselves in the reflection of the glass windows, just like in Tokyo. Never seen that happen in Beijing, and Shanghai girls here all take taxis anyway.

I'm sure that crosstalk is excellent practice, but it's sort of like speaking English like a Cockney stand-up comedian. That speaking style is challenging for non-natives and endearing to native speakers, but it's not necessarily appropriate to all situations.

Yeah, 'sexy legs' is catchy. 畀's legs are more poised though, and 兼 looks like Marilyn's billowing skirt.

[wushijiao]

Is Hong Kong included?

If "yes", then I guess Hong Kong might be the fashion capital of China. At least fashion in music and movies...etc.

I think Shanghai would win if the question is: which city's people are most obsessed with looking good? But then again, I don't really know enough about Hong Kong to compare the two cities. I'd bet they are (friendly) fashion rivals, in addition to business rivals.

[Long Zhiren]

I suppose that a non-native speaker really has to live somewhere to pick up that place's accent.

I am a non-native Chinese speaker, but of 100% Chinese ancestry. I only kind of look Chinese.. My accents are a lost cause after actively speaking and learning Mandarin with every possible native-speaking passer-by here in the US. I was most active in US undergraduate and graduate university studies. There was never a shortage of students from China or Taiwan that I could abuse with my desire to practice speaking/hearing. My Mandarin has now got to be the craziest hodge podge of accents and colloquialisms ever.

When Cantonese speakers run into me, they think I'm from northern China.

When Northern Chinese speakers run into me, they think I'm from southern China.

I'm most glad that I have no "American" accent!

I've also learned that my Mandarin speech is well impregnated by Nanjing, Hunan, Beijing and Manchurian expressions. Sometimes, I can try to start faking a Szechuan accent. I'm one confused puppy. And I think it's too late to fix any of it.

By the way, I can now detect most Taiwan-style Mandarin speakers. For some reason, I can't stand that accent.

The sexy legs thing drives me up the wall too.

It's almost as bad as the more melodramatic Cantonese speakers who draw sounds out way past their own funerals.

[Desmond]

I usually like to harbour my own opinions on which accents are "better" and which are "worse" in my mind (same goes for traditional vs. simplified characters) cause I really don't wanna offend people. But I'll let it slip just a bit and comment on accents...

I find the TV accent the most pleasing to my ears. I think this is simply because TV is usually the clearest in any language, as well as this is the style of accent that is taught to me in the classroom. For those reasons, I have developed a bit of a bias on accent preferences.

However, when I talk to someone (despite their accent) and have a fun or interesting conversation with them, my judgments usually wash away as I'm faced with reality: language is for communication and when I can communicate, I'm ecstatic!

So although I do have my own preferences clearly defined in my mind (I could write you a list, ranking the accents across China and Taiwan in order of preference), I don't want to say, nor think, that I blindly hate any style of accent. Sure, some Beijingers may feel that their 儿化 is the way to be, that they are the center of China with their "high" accent, but many do not. To many, it is their everyday language and they're just getting by, nothing wrong with that. Same goes for Taiwan, with their lack of distinction of s/sh, etc. Even though I've defined that as non-standard for this poll, it wasn't meant as a negative judgment.

BTW, this wasn't meant to condemn you for anything you said, Long Zhiren. Just sharing my own opinion.

And this extends to the character issue (simp/trad). I've noticed many people bashing the character set that they don't prefer. Both sets are used by millions of people, and are "native" to them. Sure one is older and one is easier, but I really don't believe that either are "worse". From a real life, utilitarian point of view, both are useful.

Anyway, just felt like commenting on this topic in general. Maybe I'm just in a flighty mood right now World peace, woohoo, haha

[kimichen]

I think accents are a difficult topic. I am in Sydney and have many friends from Taiwan/Hong Kong/Mainland. All have different accents. I think the easiest principle is to stick to what you are taught in the classroom if you are not sure.

As an English learner, I have a similar problem overseas. I find people in Australia speaking many different accents. Usually there are some reasons--like education, location, and age. Generally speaking, people have higher education or in a formal situation tend to speak English close to what we learn in the classroom (so easy for me). But in bars, never mind anything teachers say.

I have to make an effort to pronounce zhi chi shi ri zi ci si when talking to my aussie friends in Chinese (I have a lazy tongue when talking to Chinese). Chinese learners do usually have a better accent than me. However, I think why people in the South or elsewhere can live without a proper accent is because it's easy to tell from the context and tones.