question about specific "le" usage

[Ferno]

wo3 ding4 le yi1 ge4 fang2 jian1

(I have reserved a room)

ni3 ding4 fang2 jian1 le ma?

(Have you reserved a room?)

Why is the ding4...le split up in the second sentance? I thought that it's usually kept with the verb unless it is with qu4 (to go) when talking about going to a place ie "wo3 qu4 bei2 jing1 le)

[btw, can you guys comfortably read the pinyin? I don't know characters, I guess I can look them up in the dictionary and copy & paste individually if it's better for you]

[nipponman]

We have a sticky thread that refers to le's usages. http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/3383-grammar-4-%e4%ba%86&page=1

[Ferno]

yes but I don't see the "states"/"stage change" thing in these sentances...

[Ferno]

hmm I'm trying to find a similar sentance in Altair's post... but I do not see why "ding4 le" could not have been used in the second sentance..

[gougou]

Hmm, le is not a particular strong point of mine, but I'll try to recall what I learnt about it such a long time ago...

It has to do with the "yi ge". I am not sure what the correct term for that is, but when the noun is specified (as for example "yi ge", "wo de"...) the "le" follows the verb. If it's just the noun, the "le" is placed at the end of the sentence.

As far as I know "Ni ding le fangjian" is not complete, it means something like "After you reserved the room, ..."

[semantic nuance]

wo3 ding4 le yi1 ge4 fang2 jian1

(I have reserved a room)

ni3 ding4 fang2 jian1 le ma?

(Have you reserved a room?)

wo3 ding4 le yi1 ge4 fang2 jian1--it stresses more on 'a room' you reserved.

wo3 ding4 (le) yi1 ge4 fang2 jian1 le--le at the end of the sentence here stresses more on the action you've finished.

Dialogue example:

A: wo3 ding4 le yi4 jian1 fang2 jian1. (I reserved a room.)

B: ni ding4 le shen2 me? wo3 mei2 ting1 qing1 chu3. (What did you reserve? I didnt' hear you clearly.)

Just an opnion. Hope it helps!

A: yi4 jian1 fang2 jian1. (A room.)

B: zhe4 me kuai4 (a)!! ni3 (yi3 jing1) ding4 le fang2 jian1 le (a). Soon soon! You've already reserved a room.

A: shi4 a ! Wo3 (yi3 jing1) ding4 (le) yi4 jian fan2 jian le. Yeah, I've already reserved a room.

[barry]

wo3 ding4 le yi1 ge4 fang2 jian1

我 定 了一 个 房 间。

or 我定房间了。(不一定是一个房间)

ni3 ding4 fang2 jian1 le ma?

你 定 房 间 了 吗？

or 你定了房间吗？

上面四个句子都是可以的

我的英文不好，你们能理解我的意思吗？

[Ferno]

thanks for your replies..

hmm semantic nuance, I am confused

Why do you put brackets around some words? do you mean they are optional? ie (yi3 jing1), the meaning of "already" is important to the sentance, how is the meaning of "already" supposed to be conveyed without "yi3 jing1"? and what are the brackets around "le" for if the usage of "le" is what we are discussing?

Also, this "stress" thing seems arbitrary to me. If I am saying that I reserved a room, in Mandarin, do I put stress on "reserved" or "room"?

[barry]

I can't see my post!

[Desmond]

我定房间了。(不一定是一个房间)

为什么不一定是一间房间？如果不是一间房间。。。为什么说：我订房间了？

（我用“订”，你用“定”。 都可以，对不对？）

[barry]

十分报歉，我用错了字，应该是“订”不是“定”

[semantic nuance]

Sorry to confuse you, Ferno.

1. I put brackets to mean that they're optional. The meaning is the same with or without brackets.

2. If your sentence is without yi3jing3, there's still a possibilty to convey the meaning of yi3jing3.

3. The bracket for 'le' is to show you that you can use or don't use (le) in that sentence, and the meaning is the same.

4. As for the 'stress' thing, I just wanted to indicate that from a sentence you could interpret its meaning from different contexts. Of course you could stress the verb 'ding4' here, but the question will be different. See the follwoing examples:

stress on 'ding4 (le)':

A: wo3 ding4 le yi4 jian1 fang2 jian1. (I reserved a room.)

B: ni3 shuo1 shen2 me? shen2 me shen2 me fang2 jian1? (A: What did you say? what did you do with a room?)

A: wo3 shuo1 wo3 ding4 le yi4 jian1 fang2 jian1. (I said I reserved a room.)

stress on 'fang2 jian1':

A: wo3 ding4 le yi4 jian1 fang2 jian1. (I reserved a room.)

B: ni ding4 le shen2 me? wo3 mei2 ting1 qing1 chu3. (What did you reserve? I didnt' hear you clearly.)

A: wo3 ding4 le yi4 jian1 fang2 jian1.

Hope I make it clear this time.

[Ferno]

did you mean to put "le" at the end of the sentance when you were stressing "fang2 jian1"?

[semantic nuance]

No, you misunderstood me. The original post by me has explained that.

wo3 ding4 le yi1 ge4 fang2 jian1--it stresses more on 'a room' you reserved.

wo3 ding4 (le) yi1 ge4 fang2 jian1 le--le at the end of the sentence here stresses more on the action you've finished.

The dialogue example in the first post by me was to try to give you examples that possible interpretations exist when you didn't use 'le' at the end of the sentence. And, the second post by me was further explanations to clarify the confusion you had. Please refer back to these posts. I was sorry if I haven't done clear explanations.

[Ferno]

wo3 ding4 le yi1 ge4 fang2 jian1--it stresses more on 'a room' you reserved.

wo3 ding4 (le) yi1 ge4 fang2 jian1 le--le at the end of the sentence here stresses more on the action you've finished.

stress on 'ding4 (le)':

A: wo3 ding4 le yi4 jian1 fang2 jian1. (I reserved a room.)

B: ni3 shuo1 shen2 me? shen2 me shen2 me fang2 jian1? (A: What did you say? what did you do with a room?)

A: wo3 shuo1 wo3 ding4 le yi4 jian1 fang2 jian1. (I said I reserved a room.)

??

I understand your first example now, though. Thanks!

[semantic nuance]

glad to be of help, Ferno:)

[LiYuanXi]

Desmond: I think the singular form will be 我订了间房间．

我订房间了ｄｉｄ　ｎｏｔ　ｐｒｅｃｉｓｅｌｙ　ｔｅｌｌ　ｕｓ　ｈｏｗ　ｍａｎｙ　ｒｏｏｍｓ　ｙｏｕ　ｂｏｏｋｅｄ。　Ｃａｎ　ｂｅ　ｏｎｅ　ｏｒ　ｔｗｏ　ｏｒ　ｍｏｒｅ．