Chinese manners

[zenrox]

Hello all,

With my lack of knowledge about the Chinese people I don't mean to generalize about the Chinese population but I've had really bad experiences with them the past few years. I came to college, expecting an open atmosphere where ideas and thoughts can be exchanged in respect and open our minds and hearts to the world. However, my substandard expectations weren't met quite that much.

My first year roommate was extremely difficult to deal with for me. I felt like he couldn't look into my face for whatever reason when we spoke and he always looked away like he couldn't stand to talk/look at me. He also never spoke eloquently and sensibly but always in a hurried and lack-of-confidence manner, which gave off the feeling his communication was lacking. Most of all I wanted an environment where I can truly bond because we were sleeping 3 feet from one another in the dorms but he seemed to always be distant when it came to truly getting to know and respect one another. I can say that I've learned about people as a whole from this individual, but I think it really had a negative effect on me for a while because I felt defensive and confused for something I couldn't exactly figure out (I felt I was a crazy person for awhile). There were many nights where he would slam the doors and the chest drawers (althought he toned it down when I started doing it to him) and there was an overall lack of manner and going-out-of-your-way for others. His lack of confidence and manners really rubbed off on me and I think I became quite insane for awhile because I felt really bitter. On the other hand, I met a lot of kind and respectable Chinese girls. So I don't know, are there Chinese men out there that are just plain rude, bitter, and not confident?

My second roommate:

He is Taiwanese and appeared to be a decent guy at first sight. But the more I got to know him (or I should say the more his girlfriend and he got 'more comfortable' around here) I've felt his rude manners. He speaks in a loud/unmannerful tone all the time and basically everything he does is in an abrupt or noisy fashion - simple things like closing the door, spitting his saliva, laughing, treating his dog, etc. One thing that also disturbs me is how bitter and sour he can be at times. He hates the school and hates the people here. He felt he should've gotten better (with good reasons) but he's unwilling to make the best of things. He also speaks bluntly about how ugly people are which I feel is kind of rude. Most of all it really ticks me off when I ask him for a favor (such as cleaning his own dog's piss or taking care of rental contracts) and he waits a long time until he does it. I feel that's really disrespectful and goes to show that what's important to others (for instance the landowner, mananger, and myself) isn't important to him. As a matter of fact, I let him keep his dog (he keeps in a bathroom which is kind of sad) here even though the apartment doesn't allow it. I've given him his own room and I live in the living room. I let his girlfriend sleep over all the time. I've cooked many dinners for him. And yet when I ask him to keep the kitchen a bit more clean or throw out the trash once in a while, my requests are blatantly ignored.

It's really difficult to deal with people who don't treat others the way they want to be treated. You can call me sensititive (I tend to be under closed doors), but I always go out of my way for others or try to and although expecting something back would be deemed sort of selfish, I think better of others - that people can do 'better' than that. The roommates and people I've dealt with here (the crumby Inland Empire) have lacked decent manner and etiquette at least from my experience. It so happened to be that both of them were Chinese.

With all the respect I'm not bashing the Chinese people. I have many wonderful Chinese friends (most of them girls, go figure) but I don't exactly know why I can't deal with the guys around here. Someone please elaborate some thoughts and opinions so I can better understand.

[Desmond]

Very intersting problem you have here.

First thing is that generalizations are just that, general. So of course these people don't represent all people in/from China/Taiwan.

Of course there are general cultural differences that can't be ignored. I remember years ago, a friend telling me about roommates she had from Shanghai. These girls treated her (and our city in Canada) as if it they were low-rate. Supposedly they had an attitude that China (namely Shanghai) was the center of of all, and this was just some place they were going to study.

However, I took this not as a general "Chinese" thing, but just a quality of these specific girls. Just like someone can come from New York and feel the same way about my city, while others may not. I've met many people who are not like this at all.

For your first roommate, is there any signs that he may have been having a hard time adjusting away from his home country? He may have been very depressed in such a foreign environment.

As for spitting, it's just more common in the Chinese culture to be open in that area. At least that's what I've noticed. About the messyness, the dog in the bathroom, he's just an (insert profanity), is what I say. I haven't noticed this as specifically being a culture thing...

My suggestion: If the roommate sucks, get a new one! Doesn't matter where they come from, what their culture is like. If you don't like them, say good-bye!

[gougou]

Of course, you can be lucky with your roommates, or rather unlucky, and maybe you have been unlucky twice.

But if, like you say, in response to your roommate slamming doors, you start slamming doors, maybe you haven't been doing everything exactly right?

[笨笨德]

when i was first sharehousing here in taiwan we had an old mainland chinese guy, the landlord, living with us too.... he felt the need to purge 8 tons of luggies from his lungs every morning, right outside my other housemates window... i thought i was hilarious for a while, but it eventually started to drive my housemate mental... especually when we found out he was also hacking them down the kitchen sink...*uuurgh*

now i sublease out the upper floor of my house to two taiwanese students, they are great.

looks like you are just having a run of bad luck... the daily phlem expulsion routine seems to be somewhat of a cultural nuance of the older generations though... just be greatful he isnt leaving cups of betel nut lying around everywhere....

dont worry it will be a soon just be a funny story you will be recalling over a pint with friends...

[chenpv]

Zenrox, thank you for your post. Actually, I ve been think about the same stuff recently and it is really nice to have someone to converse with. Before I state my opinions, please let me introduce myself a little bit, with which information, you can take a better understanding on my points and make your own judgement: I am a 21-year-old male native Chinese. I never been abroad before. My conceptions about foreigners are based on not too much face-to-face talking, years of online chatting, movie/TV series viewing(at least 400), English publication reading(a lot, but not very efficient, or I would do much better on my English).Also, to avoid unconvincing generalisation, I will write the following exclusively corresponding to what I (my friends) choose to do in this special circumstance.

So if I am right, you wondered about how to communicate with a male Chinese open-mindedly (or make a male Chinese talk open-mindedly). OK, I believe it never gonna happen if the relationship between the two persons is unclear, especially these two have different culture backgrounds. But more often, the curiosity about another culture makes the individual to aim higher than what the reality is, that is, one will always need a period of time to get used to the other, which can not be omitted. Foreign(US mostly, also others) people, IMHO, tend to rush, just like 'hey, China is cool, tell me all about it.' (And their eagerness to talk is pillared by an impulse which seems to vanish in minutes.) and dont care about the current situation. Usually, they may get some official replies rather than another person's soul talk, and the latter only appears when a real relationship begins.

The depth of talk also depends on what topic you have chosen to discuss. To my experience, foreign college students like the following topics: Sex & Girls, Sports and Cars, which were verified by several my high school friends who went abroad several years ago. You know what, My friends complained about the unpleasant topic of sex, unrelated interests in sports, unconceivable illusions of cars which were hotly discussed by their counterparts. It was not that they didnt want to communicate with others, but they found few people who had the sincerities (or right topics) to talk to. I should admit language barrier somewhat prevent the conversation flowing smoothly, but as a collection of opinions turn out, most of my friend outside find themselves inferior to the people around. They hope to communicate but foreigners seem too high above who never do anything out of agenda. I am thankful to my friends who told me their feelings so that I can adjust myself a little when I am chatting online. I should say it works well.

Also, foreigners are inclined to make conversations after some preludes which once perplexed me a lot. Before real conversation happens, I am usually imformed that:' I am white or I am Caucasic' ( foreign girls like to emphasize how hot she is, how large the twins are and so on. since you are talking about male-male relationship, I will let go these.)together with nationality, which, i think, is way of showing off. Does the skin color really matter while talking to each other?I dont care about whether a person is white or if he is rich or not, to me, it's just too much information.

Even though it is tricky, I think it is universally true to deal with people differently according to their characters. Narrow down to the two roommates you have mentioned, who are representatives of two kinds, I think (I make the conclusion according to my experiences). the first one seems to be a reticent person who dont know how to exchange feelings with strangers, but that doesnt mean that he knows nothing about the outside world. On the contrary, this kind of people usually knows a lot lot more than the average, ranging from academics to social stuffs. They might be sometimes unaware of their behaviors but kind suggestions will always work. To deal with this kind of people, dont push, show enough care, make small short conversations constantly, if you two get to know each other, I believe you will find him more and more talkative and seldom are his words craps. Furthermore, he can be a good loyal friend who cares about you, listens patiently to your words. The second one cannot(can) be as bad as a spoiled one. This kind of person chooses his own friends. He acts beautifully dealing with others but seldom shows real care. So dont expect too much on this kind of person, you are doing just fine if you can live peacefully with him, exchange plain talks laughs, make some hang out. And you get an extra prize if he ever calls when you two are not living in the same place after graduation. Dont try to tell your heart, its useless anyway.

You ve been telling again and again that you are doing great on male-female relationships. I am just wondering how is you male-male relationship going in your country with natives. I dont want to offend, but I thought I read a article in 'Reader's Digest', which encourages foreign males to build these friendships regardless some social biases, like gay thing, showing frail aspect of a man etc.

[Desmond]

Foreign(US mostly, also others) people, IMHO, tend to rush, just like 'hey, China is cool, tell me all about it.' (And their eagerness to talk is pillared by an impulse which seems to vanish in minutes.) and dont care about the current situation. Usually, they may get some official replies rather than another person's soul talk, and the latter only appears when a real relationship begins.

So this doesn't happen in Chinese culture? I do this all the time! When I meet someone, I chat with them, find out basic information, and if there's not a lot of time to just sit down and talk (there often isn't) then I just move on to whatever is next. It's quite a normal thing, and usually considered friendly as opposed to not talking at all. And most people realize that we just don't have a lot of time to sit and talk.

So how if this seems superficial to Chinese people, what do you use to start and maintain a conversation?

The depth of talk also depends on what topic you have chosen to discuss. To my experience, foreign college students like the following topics: Sex & Girls, Sports and Cars, which were verified by several my high school friends who went abroad several years ago. You know what, My friends complained about the unpleasant topic of sex, unrelated interests in sports, unconceivable illusions of cars which were hotly discussed by their counterparts.

but they found few people who had the sincerities (or right topics) to talk to.

I've noticed that North America (compared to most other places I've been) can be seen as quite rude, loud, and obnoxious. Do most Chinese people find it rude to talk about sex? Or uncomfortable? Inappropriate? What are some basic, preferred topics to discuss when you don't know someone very well?

most of my friend outside find themselves inferior to the people around. They hope to communicate but foreigners seem too high above who never do anything out of agenda.

Did your friends actually feel inferior? Or did they feel that we think they are inferior? There's a big difference, and I would like to know!

It's often true, how we live a fast paced life. Of course only some people fall into that category, whereas there are many others who are willing to take time out of their schedule to get together and spend quality time with friends and family.

[chenpv]

So this doesn't happen in Chinese culture? I do this all the time! When I meet someone.........this seems superficial to Chinese people, what do you use to start and maintain a conversation?

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. It's not at all the issue that we take that attitude superficial, but the different ways of coping with different persons. Yes, we cut to the point when talking with a stranger, because there is no need to exchange background informations, but I thought zenrox was asking about maintaining a longer relationship like roommates. So, IMHO, the usual approach to deal with strangers can hardly work out this way.

Also, I dont think its necessary to converse under the name of 'converse'. Speaking of roommates, I take the point that let the emotional linkage lead the conversation. In many cases, I believe that a greeting, a simple pat on the shoulder, a word of care etc deepens the relationship, rather than some laborious long conversations you mean to maintain.

I am a college student here who share a room with another 5 boys. I can assure you that it took at least two weeks to get to know each other. During the first two weeks, we barely went into any longer conversations, but we did something----------- to help someone carry water, to clean the dorm(while i confess our dorm now is........ ), to wake up others in the morning etc, which increased the interrelationships. And now we are inseparable.

I've noticed that North America (compared to most other places I've been) can be seen as quite rude, loud, and obnoxious. Do most Chinese people find it rude to talk about sex? Or uncomfortable? Inappropriate?

We talk about sex, but not in the first few times. Furthermore, it depends on how you say it. We are inclined to say it through euphemism rather than some 'barely illegal' stuff.

Did your friends actually feel inferior? Or did they feel that we[/b'] think they are inferior?

The first one. Seldom are there good Chinese persons who ascribe something wrong to others.

[adrianlondon]

I've been to China only the once (Beijing), and that was a few weeks ago. Apart from the general "local" behaviour (spitting and smartly dressed women popping out of their office to clear their nostrils out onto the pavement) I found the people really friendly. Complete strangers would use their English to chat with me, wanting nothing more than a few minutes' conversation before we cycled off in different directions. When I used what little Mandarin I know, the little stall holders selling dumplings etc. hidden away in hutongs all seemed really eager to listen to me struggle with the language before saying how good it was. Just a nice, polite race I thought.

As for the original poster's comments on Taiwanese - I've been to Taiwan (T'aipei) twice. Most of the locals behave like they would in any other overly crowded, big city. Also, those I know in the UK often comment on how ugly other asians are. It seems common behaviour. If you overhear someone say "look at those ugly Koreans : hao chou!" or some such, you can bet it's a Taiwanese :-)

As for the noisy room mates - I imagine it's just something they do without thinking. Living in a shared room, with other members of your family all your life, I guess you stop bothering with being quiet and "tiptoeing" around. As a Westerner, I plan to have my own room when I go to study in Beijing next year. I couldn't share a bedroom with anyone (well, unless we were having sex, obviously, but you knew what I meant, I trust!).

(typos corrected)

[hakkaboy]

Chenpv, Westerners used to have a more conservative culture too. In the 1950s talk about sex was frowned upon. Nowadays, those people who think the cultural developments in the West over the last 50 years to have been a mistake are told to "lighten up", "get out more", etc. So it is "uncool" to wonder if social breakdown has been quite as positive as we are told it is. I thought a lot about this recently when I bought a DVD set of the American TV show The Waltons, including 25 episodes. It is regarded as a little bit corny, too nicey-nice, celebration of family values. But I think that Asian people would warm to the values of The Waltons, but not to US hip-hop culture. At one stage, years ago, I started to think that China had everything to learn from the West, and very little the other way round, and when Chinese people pointed out to me that family values could be learned from China by the West, I guffawed that these values had been purposefully junked 50 years ago. Now, I am not so sure. Maybe it is a 2 way street, and large parts of US culture are simply symptoms of social collapse. Actually, we should not talk about sex, we should not ram the subject down the throats of little children in school, and the prominence of discussions of homosexuality/teen pregnancy/abortion and the rest is simply degrading to all concerned. I feel I could explain that point quite comfortably to a Chinese person - but provoke outrage from most Western students, so that is the cultural divide. When I was in China, I heard university students complain that all their foreign teachers wanted to do a class on the subject of homosexuality, with the aim of convincing the Chinese students of what a wonderful new possibility in their lives this could be etc. We are beyond innocence. I am wondering if the values of small-town America, homely but innocent, are far more admirable from a Chinese perspective than those of most of the Western students who visit China?

[adrianlondon]

I am wondering if the values of small-town America, homely but innocent, are far more admirable from a Chinese perspective than those of most of the Western students who visit China?

Never base your assessment on another country's population solely on those who want to, and who can afford to, travel. They're bound to be the brashest of the lot

[hakkaboy]

Never base your assessment on another country's population solely on those who want to, and who can afford to, travel. They're bound to be the brashest of the lot

Yes, too true! Exactly!

[Desmond]

I really do see it as a two-way street in many ways. It's often hard, having grown up in North America, as I've always embraced our ways of thinking from birth.

When I was in China, I heard university students complain that all their foreign teachers wanted to do a class on the subject of homosexuality, with the aim of convincing the Chinese students of what a wonderful new possibility in their lives this could be etc.

I haven't taught in China, but if I did, I would be one of these people.

I see it as a benefit. I see small-town America as being a melting-pot sort of atmosphere where people have to conform to the norm to be accepted. That's why every small town has their popular people, and has their town freak(s). Be it a homosexual, a foreigner, or just someone who doesn't "fit in", the level of acceptance isn't very high. In the big cities where "everything goes", people can almost always find someone else like them.

When I see places like China, if often feels like small town America. I would feel bad for all those people who need to conform, who can't just be themselves.

On the other hand, it would be nice to have stronger family values. Here it's not just that we aren't forced to be with family we hate (I have an aunt that I absoutely hate, so I haven't seen her in years---good thing), but that we often aren't even encouraged to keep contact with them (my brother is too busy playing video games to come to dinner with my grandparents, and my parents don't say anything about it---bad thing).

I think we have a lot to learn from eachother!