using "ba" construction with different tenses

[hidden12345]

Hi all- working my way through Yip Po-Ching's intermediate grammar,

unit 1 and already I have a question. Hopefully someone here can help.

Please translate each of these four sentences (into mandarin):

1.) You should open all the windows.

2.) You should not open all the windows.

2.) You should have opened all the windows.

3.) You should not have opened all the windows.

Please answer only typing in pinyin, as my spoken level is WAY

above my reading level (i know, i know..)

Here are my translations, please correct or improve upon if need be:

1.) Ni ying gai dou da kai chuanghu. (no "ba" usage...can this sentence be

rephrased utilizing the "ba" construction?)

2.) Ni bu ying gai dou da kai chuanghu. (ditto)

3.) Ni ying gai ba chuanghu dou da kai le.

4.) Ni bu ying gai ba chuanghu dou da kai le.

Please reply! -thanks

[autumn]

I'm also a student but I think you can write it like this

1+2) ni (bu) yinggai dakai suoyou de chuanghu / ni (bu) yinggai ba suoyou de chuanghu dou dakai

3+4) ni (bu) yinggai ba suoyou de chuanghu dou dakai le

dou and suoyou are not interchangeable but I'm not quite sure how to explain their usage

[kudra]

1.) You should open all the windows.

2.) You should not open all the windows.

3.) You should have opened all the windows.

4.) You should not have opened all the windows.

Changed numbering

Here is my 2 cents. Do you want to avoid ba or not?

hint no ba: try switching order, topic comment

without/ with ba

1. chuanghu ni yinggai dou da kai.

1b. ni yinggai ba chuanghu dou da kai.

2a. chuanghu ni bu yinggai dou da kai.

2b. chuanghu ni yinggai bu dou da kai. ( opening some is ok, but not all)

2c. ni bu yinggai ba chuanghu dou da kai.

2d. ni ying gai ba chuanghu bu dou da kai, (again some ok, but not all) but this sounds weird to me, a non native speaker however.

2e. how about "ni ying gai bu ba chuanghu dou da kai"?

I am pretty rusty, but it seems to me that

3a. ni ying gai ba chuanghu dou da kai le.

can be interpreted as "you should open all the windows (and thus change their state)."

Perhaps something like

3b. ni ying gai ba chuanghu dou da le kai (le).

4. similar da le kai (le) construction.

1a. 窗戶你應該都打開

1b. 你應該把窗戶都打開

2a. 窗戶你不應該都打開

2b.窗戶你應該不都打開

2c..你不應該把窗戶都打開

2d.你應該把窗戶不都打開

2e.你應該不把窗戶都打開

3a.你應該把窗戶都打開了

3b. 你應該把窗戶都打了開(了)

4. 你不應該把窗戶都打了開(了)

To my ear, 3b resolves the ambiguity, but I can't remember hard and fast grammar rules.

Like I said, I'm rusty, so don't take my word on this. I'm fishing for advice from native speakers too. In the mean time, I'm going to look up the chapter on the ba construction. :mrgreen:

[semantic nuance]

1. ni yinggai dakai suoyou de chuanghu

ni yinggai ba suoyou de chuanghu dou dakai

2. ni bu yinggai dakai suoyou de chuanghu

ni bu yinggai ba suoyou de chuanghu dou dakai

ni yinggai bu yao4 ba (不要把) suoyou de chuanghu dou dakai

3. ni yinggai ba suoyou de chuanghu dou dakai de

ni (ben3 lai2 jiu4 本來就)yinggai ba suoyou de chuanghu dou dakai (ma 嘛) or (de)

* ben3 lai2 jiu4 本來就= be supposed to ......in the first place/ that's the

way it is and should......

4. ni (bu) yinggai ba suoyou de chuanghu dou dakai de

ni yinggai bu yao4 ba (不要把) suoyou de chuanghu dou

dakai (ma 嘛) or (de)

ni (ben3 lai2 jiu4 本來就) bu yinggai ba suoyou de chuanghu dou dakai (ma 嘛)

When you use "ba" at the end of the sentence, it can express the imperative mood, advice, agreement, or assumption in different contexts. In your sentence 1 without ba at the end, it shows affirmation when you say it. But if you say "ni yinggai dakai suoyou de chuanghu ba ", it can mean You think the addressee should open all the windows. Therefore, it's not so definitely sure as sentence 1 without ba at the end.

quoted from kudra

2b. chuanghu ni yinggai bu dou da kai. ( opening some is ok, but not all)

2d. ni ying gai ba chuanghu bu dou da kai, (again some ok, but not all) but this sounds weird to me, a non native speaker however.

2e. how about "ni ying gai bu ba chuanghu dou da kai"?

We don't say all these above in Chinese. They're grammatically understandable, but we don't say them that way.

Hope it helps!

[johnmck]

Hidden12345 if you want to type in characters you should try the java appelet at: http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php

To start the appelet click on "Type Chinese" . You type in pinyin and it gives you a choice of characters with their English definitions! Afterwards just cut-and-paste the chinese text.

[hidden12345]

semantic nuance---quick question:

2. ni yinggai bu yao4 ba (不要把) suoyou de chuanghu dou dakai

(trans.: You should not open all the windows.)

4. ni yinggai bu yao4 ba (不要把) suoyou de chuanghu dou

dakai (ba 嘛) or (de)

(trans.: You should not have opened all the windows.)

The only thing differentiating these two sentences is the "de" particle at the end of the sentence. Does it come from the "shi....de" structure? If so, why no "shi"?

thanks again

[Desmond]

in the 是。。。的 structure, 是 is optional

[TCcookie]

Hi, sorry to be obnoxious. The content of this post really interests me, but I just can't stand reading all that pinyin. Even if people don't necessarily want characters, could everyone post using characters and pinyin, at least with grammar points this advanced?