Speaking Mandarin w/o actually learning it

[Ian_Lee]

I wonder how many people are in my predicament: Need to speak Mandarin without having actually learnt it (as a dialect speaker).

I don't mean you go as a tourist to Mainland/Taiwan where the hotel reception or retail sales people are forced to understand your pidgin Mandarin.

I never actually learn Mandarin (except the bopomofo in Grade 8 which had all been given back to the teacher).

But now I am always assigned to be an interpretator when our company greets business groups (range from 10-20 people) from Shanghai, Beijing or Guangzhou.

Anyhow most of the time the groups understood what I said.

[Quest]

Speaking Mandarin w/o actually learning it

I think most HK ppl are doing that.

[tluroc76]

My wife is most fluent in Hakka, English, Cantonese, Mandarin and Malay in that order. However, when her company hosts visitors from China/Taiwan she is almost always the first candidate to come to their (management) mind.

There are many others from China or Taiwan within her company who speak perfect Mandarin or Taiwanese. But, it's always my wife bearing the "tour guide" flag. We mix English, Mandarin and Taiwanese at home so she has picked up quite a lot of Mandarin compared to 8 years when we first met.

I supposed she is, too, not a "native" Mandarin speaker but she speaks it now without really learning it.

[bathrobe]

This business of "picking up" other dialects is really interesting. It's only possible because the different dialects have so much in common. People can come up with rough rules of thumb to predict how a particular word (or morpheme) will be pronounced in the other dialect. Add in some knowledge of everyday language (use of different pronouns, different grammar, etc), and you have an easy way of learning another language.

Of course, the results can be pretty rough and ready. I know one particularly Hong Kongnese who spoke appalling Mandarin based on this method, but only made it half way there. I remember, for instance, hearing him speak of a luk xiang dai, where he meant luxiangdai (video tape). The luk, of course, was from Cantonese. The amazing thing was that Beijing people could largely understand what he meant.

I wonder if the same thing is possible among European languages? Is it possible, for instance, for a German to just 'pick up' Dutch?

[Ncao]

Of course, the results can be pretty rough and ready. I know one particularly Hong Kongnese who spoke appalling Mandarin based on this method, but only made it half way there. I remember, for instance, hearing him speak of a luk xiang dai, where he meant luxiangdai (video tape). The luk, of course, was from Cantonese. The amazing thing was that Beijing people could largely understand what he meant.

Video tape is lu ying dai　( 錄影帶) (cantonese luk ying dai)，if he called a video tape lu xiang dai his Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese) must be bad.

[HashiriKata]

if he called a video tape lu xiang dai his Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese) must be bad.

I don't think so. Luxiangdai is a proper word (in Mandarin anyway.)

The amazing thing was that Beijing people could largely understand what he meant.

I think the context of the exchange helps. He's also likely to know many other words which a foreign learner doesn't, and this (co-text) helps also.

I wonder if the same thing is possible among European languages? Is it possible, for instance, for a German to just 'pick up' Dutch?

It's definitely possible .

[Ian_Lee]

I think the toughest part is actually the terminology.

Recently I was catering to a group of officials from Shanghai. When I talked about "property tax", I used the prevalent term that Hong Kong used: 物業税. But the whole group thought that I was talking about "trade tax" --貿易税. After a while, I knew that they got all the wrong idea. And I searched my mind and recalled that the term Mainland used should be 房地产税.

[Quest]

Video tape is lu ying dai　( 錄影帶) (cantonese luk ying dai)，if he called a video tape lu xiang dai his Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese) must be bad.

Not really, 录像带 is what's used in the mainland. 录影带 is a Hong Kong term. I guess it's sort of like 空调 and 冷气。Not much difference anyways.

Recently I was catering to a group of officials from Shanghai. When I talked about "property tax", I used the prevalent term that Hong Kong used: 物業税. But the whole group thought that I was talking about "trade tax" --貿易税.

How did you pronounce 物業税?

[Ncao]

Not really, 录像带 is what's used in the mainland. 录影带 is a Hong Kong term. I guess it's sort of like 空调 and 冷气。Not much difference anyways.

Oh thanks, I never heard of 錄像帶 use to mean video tape and 空調 for 冷氣. That's why it sounds strange to me.

[Lu]

I wonder if the same thing is possible among European languages? Is it possible, for instance, for a German to just 'pick up' Dutch?

It is possible for some languages that are really close (Dutch-German, the Roman languages, the Scandinavian languages). The people from these countries can usually sort of understand each other, and it is possible to pick up the language if they stay in the country for some time and have enough contact with the locals. I know of a Dutch who learned German this way (although I suppose he had learned German before in class, but that was quite long ago by the time he went to Germany) and a German who learned Dutch (although he wasn't very comfortable speaking and usually relied on English).

[atitarev]

I wonder if the same thing is possible among European languages? Is it possible, for instance, for a German to just 'pick up' Dutch?

Slavic languages are very similar and speakers of Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Polish, Czech, Slovakian, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Serbian/Croatian and Slovenian usually can understand a little each other but staying in a country and communicationg with locals helps to pick up and communication is possible from a few days to a couple of months.

Swedish, Norwegian, Danish and Icelandic people can pick each others languages easily, usually no translator is required (Northern Germanic group - Skandinavian).

Spanish and Portuguese are very close. French, Italian and Rumanian belong to the same group (Roman) but they are a bit more different. So, e.g. for a Rumanian to pick up French will require more time.

Finnish and Estonian people can understand each other (Hungarian belongs to the same group but it's unintelligible to the above), so can Latvians and Lithuanians (another separate group).

Albanian, Armenian and Georgian languages are absolutely separate languages, not close to any other.

Modern English, although belongs to the German group is very different from any Germanic language (neither Scandinavian nor Southern Germanic languages - German, Dutch, etc.)

I am sharing this because I travelled in Europe and learned languages and it's definitely easier to learn when you're in the country. Learning Chinese dialects shouldn't be any different.

Happy New Year!

[Language Guy]

I remember in high school Italian I heard a story of some couple who were happily married. The husband spoke only Spanish and the wife spoke only Italian, yet they always understood eachother. This confuses me, because after having studied both languages, I wouldn't say at all that they're mutually intelligible. But in a way, you could say that the couple "picked up" eachothers' languages, at least in terms of comprehension, while they still chose to speak their mother tongues.

LG

[amego]

Hong Kongnese who spoke appalling Mandarin

Ever heard of the phrase "天不怕地不怕，最怕广东人讲普通话." Nothing is more frightening than Cantonese speaking Putonghua."

Well of course the Cantonese cannot let it go, so they have they own version "天唔驚，地唔驚，最驚中國人講廣東話唔不正。" (i'm not very sure is it 中國人...i forgot ) ." Nothing is more frightening than Chinese speaking Cantonese."

Hmmm...i don't think so, learning and practicing makes perfect, like Hong Kong Twins are pretty much on their way le... cheers

[skylee]

We don't say "天唔驚地唔驚", we say "天不怕地不怕".

[amego]

We don't say "天唔驚地唔驚", we say "天不怕地不怕".

this is cantonese, pronounced "tin mm geng dei mm geng"

[Ncao]

this is cantonese, pronounced "tin mm geng dei mm geng"

That's vernacle Cantonese,when people have a saying they usually use standard Chinese with Cantonese pronounciation like 天不怕地不怕 (tin bat pa dei bat pa).

[Ian_Lee]

"天唔驚，地唔驚，最驚中國人講廣東話唔不正。"

Maybe that is the way Cantonese-speaking Singaporeans say about it.

In Hong Kong, nobody would depict Mandarin speakers or people from other provinces as "Chinese" (中國人).

But in Singapore it is quite natural since it is a country on its own.

Actually it should be "天不怕地不怕，最怕外江佬講廣東話".

[Quest]

天唔驚，地唔驚

That's incorrect Cantonese. If you want to convert 天不怕，地不怕 into vernacular Cantonese, it should become 唔怕天，唔怕地。but set phrases, both classical and modern are usually not converted.

[ala]

Recently I was catering to a group of officials from Shanghai. When I talked about "property tax", I used the prevalent term that Hong Kong used: 物業税. But the whole group thought that I was talking about "trade tax" --貿易税. After a while, I knew that they got all the wrong idea. And I searched my mind and recalled that the term Mainland used should be 房地产税.

In Shanghainese:

物業税 is Vegniesei, mispronunciation: Megniesei

貿易税 is Maujesei

房地产税 is Vanditshaesei or Vanditshae Soe

j = [j]

tsh = [ts']

gn = [gn]

au = [O]

e = [schwa?]

ie = [iI?]

ei = [ej]

ae = [E]

oe = [ø]

an = [A~]

[amego]

To Ncao, Ian_Lee and Quest: 我明白了。 =p