还 and 也?

[Ferno]

I am seeing both words being used as "also", before I only encountered it as "yet" ie "还没有" (haven't yet) (in which case 还 has a pretty different meaning than "also")

Can anyone explain? Thanks :o

[novemberfog]

My chinese instructor had said that 还 does not really have a concrete meaning. It really just softens things. I am interested in hearing the explanation too. You see 还 everywhere in Chinese, and it would be nice to know the true function or meaning.

[skylee]

This might help ->

還 -> http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/agrep-lindict?query=%C1%D9&category=wholerecord&boo=or&order=all

Adv.

(*[hai2]) (1) Still, yet: 他還不來 he still has not appeared yet;

還有 still have some more;

還嫌不足 still regard it as not enough;

還是不行 still won't do.

(2) After all: 還是他對 after all, he is right;

還是你自己走一趟 after all, you'd better go yourself.

(3) Besides, in addition: 他還說 he says besides;

他還要一雙鞋子 he wants, besides, a pair of shoes;

還得謝謝他 in addition, you have to thank him.

也 -> http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/agrep-lindict?query=%A4%5D&category=wholerecord&boo=or&order=all

[Ferno]

isn't "還是" (hai2 shi4) a concrete, two syllable word by itself?

are the possibilities you listed a majority of the uses? I can't seem to find any relation between them :o

[HashiriKata]

isn't "還是" (hai2 shi4) a concrete, two syllable word by itself?

Can be, but the line is rather thin.

I can't seem to find any relation between them :o

They largely point towards the idea that a situation or state of affairs has not changed. I wouldn't expect anything neater than that from a natural language.

[Ferno]

Okay, then what does 还 mean in "后年我还打算来中国"

[HashiriKata]

Okay, then what does 还 mean in "后年我还打算来中国"

In connection with what I said earlier, 还 in "后年我还打算来中国" can be said to mean:

still in a similar line to what has been said/ gone before, in addition, as well, and also, ...

[Ferno]

hmm... okay

if you are asking if a person has changed his plans, a response could be "I am STILL going to go to China"..."我还打算来中国" ?

and if you are asking if a person is ALSO going to China, the response could be the exact same "我还打算来中国" since 还 also means "also"?

[Quest]

hmm... okay

if you are asking if a person has changed his plans, a response could be "I am STILL going to go to China"..."我还打算来中国" ?

我还是打算去中国。You need 还是 here for "still", because 还 alone can mean "in addition", or "again".

and if you are asking if a person is ALSO going to China, the response could be the exact same "我还打算来中国" since 还 also means "also"?

我也打算去中国。

[HashiriKata]

In addition to Quest's post above, I should say that the problem you have seems to be with the word "ALSO" in English itself. If you can separate the 2 (logical) senses of "also" in English, you'll see that 还 and 也 are actually not overlapping/ confusing:

He said A. He ALSO said B. (ALSO = 还 )

John said A. Mary ALSO said A (ALSO = 也)

[zhwj]

还,你怎么这么傻.真的好简单也!

[Ferno]

我还是打算去中国。You need 还是 here for "still"' date=' because 还 alone can mean "in addition", or "again".[/quote']

okay, then the examples you posted from ( http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/agrep-lindict?query=%C1%D9&category=wholerecord&boo=or&order=all ) are just specific cases where 还 means only 1 thing?

[Ferno]

jie1 xialai yi1 ge, hai2 shi4 yi1 ge hen3 you3yong4 de, jie2gou4

(something like "next one is another very useful construction"?)

what does the hai2 (or hai2shi4?) mean here... "or", "still"..."also"?

[HashiriKata]

what does the hai2 (or hai2shi4?) mean here... "or", "still"..."also"?

"still"..."also".

(but as in your translation, the sense in question can be expressed in a different word)

[francisw2000]

还 as a single character i believe it is like already said: it has no definite meaning. it can be used in 我还是打算去中国. to me if you say so: it of course means you still plan to go to CN; but i will feel there is some story before. it feels like something happened and that could have changed your mind but it didn't. e.g. the air-ticket to CN i found out is too expensive, but 我还是打算去中国. if you force me to give you a meaning of 还as a single character, it could be still.

也 it is different to 还. it means also, as well. it has definite meaning.

我也打算去中国 means i plan to go to CN as well.

clear enough?

[Ferno]

meaning they could have used "也" ?

[HashiriKata]

meaning they could have used "也" ?

I don't think so, but a native speaker may be able to say for sure.

By the way, are the commas in Chinese sentence quoted your commas or are they from the original?

[Ferno]

I don't think so, but a native speaker may be able to say for sure.

hmm.. I think the answer lies in your comment ["He said A. He ALSO said B. (ALSO = 还 )] [ John said A. Mary ALSO said A (ALSO = 也)" ] and I am just having trouble wraping my mind around it because of my constricted English thinking i can't define the semantic difference although I see what you're getting at.

In this sentance, the speaker is talking about Chinese vocab and then mentions something else that is "also" a useful construction. Which one of your John/Mary examples does this apply to?

edit:

John said A. Mary ALSO said A (ALSO = 也)

X is a useful construction. Y is ALSO a useful construction.

So it should be 也, right? Or am I not applying your example correctly?

By the way' date=' are the commas in Chinese sentence quoted your commas or are they from the original?[/quote']

they are from the origional, I added them into show the 'pause' in the person's speech when they added "hai2 shi4 yi1 ge hen3 you3yong4 de", kind of like a side-comment

[HashiriKata]

meaning they could have used "也" ?

Hi, Ferno, there may be some misunderstanding in our posts. I didn't see francisw2000's reply and I thought your question was still about the sentence "jie1 xialai yi1 ge, hai2 shi4 yi1 ge hen3 you3yong4 de, jie2gou4". If it was still about this sentence, then, as I already said, I don't think 也 here would convey the same meaning. In the same way, 我还打算去中国 and 我也打算去中国 are two very different sentences.

So, before I try again (or explain further), which sentence were you thinking about when asking the above question?

[HashiriKata]

Ferno, compare the following (a) and (B) & their translations below:

(a) jie1 xialai yi1 ge, hai2 shi4 yi1 ge hen3 you3yong4 de, jie2gou4

The next structure, which is also a very useful one,

(B) jie1 xialai yi1 ge ye3 shi4 yi1 ge hen3 you3yong4 de jie2gou4

The next one is also a very useful structure

Please note: Your translation (=understanding) might have misled you into thinking ye3 can be used in the sentence quoted. Of couse, it can be, provided that the 2 commas are not there (with consequential change of meaning, as in my (B) sentence). Note also that (a) is only a phrase, not yet a sentence.