Logic

[Guest Xin]

Split from here. Roddy

logic isn't exactly in the mindset of the chinese is it? neither is thinking outside of the box..that would explain why there is no equivalent. i would really like to back up the outrageous statement ive just made but i have a hangover...in anycase, anyone who works in china or taiwan knows exactly what im talking about

[roddy]

anyone who works in china or taiwan knows exactly what im talking about

No. Come back without the hangover and try again.

Roddy

[markalexander100]

anyone who works in china or taiwan knows exactly what im talking about

When I was working there, this phrase came in very handy: 那只是迷信没有科学根据。

[smithsgj]

Closely argued, Xin, flawless *logic*, admirable job. I'd often wondered what was "in the mindset of the chinese" (??? what u say?), but thanks to you I now know. It goes without saying that any further contributions you might make to these boards would be warmly welcomed.

Idiot.

[ChouDoufu]

logic isn't exactly in the mindset of the chinese is it? neither is thinking outside of the box..that would explain why there is no equivalent. i would really like to back up the outrageous statement ive just made but i have a hangover...in anycase, anyone who works in china or taiwan knows exactly what im talking about

I actually agree with Xin here. In way too many things the Chinese seem to be illogical.. at the very least I can say their logic often escapes me.

[smithsgj]

You don't seem to be a one-off flame artist that needs a good kicking on the xin, so:

Can you give any concrete examples of "illogical things" about the Chinese?

How much is "too many things"?

If their logic "escapes you", is that their error or yours?

Are you referring to PRC residents only? Or including those from Taiwan? Hong Kong? Western countries? Members of ethnic minorities, such as Tibetans? Do you include people who use this forum in your analysis? or their families?

Actually, one thing you could to find some evidence is go through this forum and pull out all the posts by Chinese people. Some will give themselves away because their English is not great; in other cases you may have to read between the lines a bit to work out their skin colour or national status or whatever it is that gets your goat. Then, you can decide which posts are logical, and which are not. Next, apply your logical western brain to a bit of statistical analysis and look for the trends; is there evidence that Chineseness and logic are mutually exclusive?

A real question: are you actually talking about different cultural priorities? Or do you think that Chinese people "think differently"? Don't you find that a rather dangerous assumption?

[markalexander100]

Well, based on my experiences living in small-town China: xenophobia; racism; the excuse for an educational system; adherence to an ossified social structure...

I'm not saying all Chinese people are evil, or stupid, or illogical; but educational standards, awareness of the outside world and acceptance of diversity are, for the bulk of mainland Chinese, extremely poor. It's not their fault, and a lot of them know that it's a problem, but that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

[ChouDoufu]

Can you give any concrete examples of "illogical things" about the Chinese?

All illogical phenomenon I am mentioning takes place in BJ. I can't comment on taiwan.

The building I live in has a security keypad and a security doorman. But you can bypass all of this by going into the basement (where the bikes are placed) and walking up a flight of stairs. That's quite illogical by my book.

The vast majority of pedestrians I've noticed don't look when crossing the road. They just step off the sidewalk (when their not just walking in the bike path on the road) with some sort of illogical notion that nothing would happen.

In the cafeteria at BLCU at around 1pm a young lady comes by spraying a cleaner on the floor. After spraying the dirty floors with the cleaner she leaves. No mopping takes place. Do the floors end up cleaner because of that? I doubt it...

Recieving a Fedex package required me to fax a copy of my passport...

I repeat there are lots of ways in which Chinese society is illogical. It's not a particular knock on Chinese people, either. I'm sure if you took a close look at the people in the country of your origin you'd find illogical behavior. I don't see how mentioning this constitutes as flamebait, either.

[holyman]

just for fun only... some of the things i feel not so logical in china:

like some mainlanders spitting in their own homes and rub it dry with their shoes. i dont see the logic cos they still have to clean the floor afterwards.

or often during rush hour in beijing, to my surprise the traffic gets even slower when there is a traffic police managing the scene. everyone feared being booked so their speed automatically drops to below 40.

then in most places outside beijing or, outside china, at a conflict scene, i usually see men quarrelled and hauling harsh words at each other while their female companions try to pull them away... but in beijing u'll often see the women screaming and cursing at each other while the men try to pull them back...

[roddy]

I'm going to join in here, though I'm not sure I should . . .

I don't think you can say that Chinese people, individually, are any more or less logical than any other people. I'm pretty sure you could argue they make decisions based on a different value system to other people, and that can quite easily appear illogical. When Mr Toufu (or is it Mr. Chou?) says 'their logic escapes me' I think it's more likely to be the values and motivations in the decision making process that have escaped, not the logic.

I think the crossing the road example is the most compelling. The others can be explained by bureaucracy and poor management (both illogical, but not a result of illogical people).

I think the 'illogical notion that nothing would happen' is a part of human nature - see smoking, drink-driving, crossing the road without looking, speeding, poor safety procedures in factories. Sure, a sit-down logical analysis says you shouldn't do these things - but humans very rarely sit down and logically analyse anything. 99% of the time 99% of the people will be ok, and that's good enough for us.

If it changes, it's not because we suddenly work it out for ourselves - it'll be some kind of public education campaign - how many road safety ads have you seen in your life? - or because it's forced upon us - like compulsory seatbelt wearing - or a combination of these, or something else like a near miss.

It's not a logic issue (or at least, it's not a logic issue where there is any difference between Chinese people and anyone else) - it a social issue - education, enforcement, and their effectiveness.

Take a look at statistics for seat-belt wearing before and after a public education campaign here. The logic of wearing seatbelts never changed - people's awareness of it's benefits did.

Roddy

PS. As for 'flamebait' - the original poster describes his own 'Logic is not in the Chinese mindset' statement as outrageous. I don't think it was a deliberate attempt to annoy, but if people are going to make statements like that on a site visited by as many Chinese people as non-Chinese, I think they could at least attempt to justify them, hungover or not.

[holyman]

oh yeah, driving... when someone flash his lights intending to switch lane, the cars in the lane he's about to switch to automatically fill up the gap and this guy couldnt switch. i dunno the mindset but i dont see why u cant let another car get into your lane. i think this is the most common reason for jams, cars cant switch into the correct lanes and got stuck there...

then, also the other way round, many times when a cabby is about to make a left turn or a right turn like... 500m ahead, he still twist and turn to the opposite furthermost lane then when he's about 100m from the junction he try to switch back, causing jams and other drivers cursing and swearing at him.

according to cabbies: those in good cars are usually lousy drivers, i think its at least 50% true from my experience(i myself have 10yrs experience in driving)

[ala]

The logic of the Chinese...

How about this? The revocation of residency permits (hukou 户口) and identification cards (shenfen-zheng 身份证) for Chinese citizens (公民) who go abroad. This means, once they go abroad, they have no right to vote on local elections to which they could before, even though they are still Chinese citizens. They receive no information about what's going on at home, no bulletins from the PRC embassies and consulates. No information on local events or elections. Also, when they go back to China, they are treated as foreigners, and must pay "foreigner's prices" from real estate, to the entrance into the Forbidden City. Yet, they hold a Chinese passport and no other passport.

Hence, other than the passport for re-entry, the PRC citizenship pretty much means nothing. These people are practically not citizens of any country. They can't even start a bank account with ease back in China, as their ID was revoked, nor do they carry a foreign passport. This in the end forces many abroad Chinese citizens, who would otherwise consider keeping their mother citizenship, to relinquish it in disillusionment to the country that has abandoned them. Many are forced to feel that it would be safer and more convenient to travel back to China with a foreign passport than a Chinese one, as the Chinese one gives no rights to these abroad Chinese citizens (not even those rights guaranteed to those living in China).

So much for reversing the brain-drain.

And why is there a complete lack of friendly customer service in Chinese consulates in the US?? The attitude of these workers is especially unhelpful, bitter and caustic if the traveler is Chinese OR Taiwanese. What's the logic in that?

[roddy]

I've got Chinese people standing next to me, with their 身份证's, returned from abroad, saying that the above regarding the treatment of Chinese returned from abroad is simply not true. 'Perhaps in the past'. I'd be extremely interested in any references to this in legal documentation / news stories, etc - a quick Baidu and Google search didn't find anything, but I'm not great at searching in Chinese. Dual pricing at tourist attractions, certainly the Forbidden City, ended years ago and I'm not aware of any official dual pricing systems anywhere - with the possible exception of those that offer one price for people with local hukou's and everyone else.

Regardless, I think it would be useful if we could see examples of INDIVIDUAL logic, which is what I took the discussion to be about - organisational decision-making, such as by governments or companies is an entirely different matter.

And why is there a complete lack of friendly customer service in Chinese consulates in the US?? Especially if the traveler is Chinese OR Taiwanese. What's the logic in that?

Nobody cares. The people speaking to visitors don't care if the visitors are happy or not, the bosses don't care. Add to that what is probably a very montonous job and you have a complete lack of friendly customer service - and I think that'll be true for any nation.

[ala]

I've got Chinese people standing next to me, with their 身份证's, returned from abroad, saying that the above regarding the treatment of Chinese returned from abroad is simply not true. 'Perhaps in the past'.

I am still Chinese citizen. And I have no hukou nor ID. I left China in 1992. You cannot renew your hukou and ID from abroad. So it's not perhaps in the past, but was indeed practiced in the past. I don't know what the situation is today. Perhaps the Chinese people standing next to you haven't expired their unrenewable hukou and ID. The fact that you are given an ID card and yet unable to renew it when you are abroad is extremely disturbing. This ID card is not your driver's license nor a privilege.

Dual pricing at tourist attractions, certainly the Forbidden City, ended years ago and I'm not aware of any official dual pricing systems anywhere - with the possible exception of those that offer one price for people with local hukou's and everyone else.

Dual pricing was healthy and alive when I went to the Forbidden City in 1996, you were charged higher if you did not have a valid shenfenzheng. The merging of two-tier price structure did not end "years ago." It is still practiced today in lesser known tourist attractions.

Nobody cares. The people speaking to visitors don't care if the visitors are happy or not, the bosses don't care. Add to that what is probably a very montonous job and you have a complete lack of friendly customer service - and I think that'll be true for any nation.

There are monotonous jobs everywhere, but image is still quite important. I'm sure there are plenty of capable and willing people in China to do this monotonous job well. Your suggestion that no one cares in the pyramid table, does hint a certain national logic going on.

[roddy]

Ok, so if you go abroad and don't return for a certain period of time, you lose your citizenship?

I have not come across any instances of official higher prices for foreigners / Non-Chinese / Non ID card holders since 1999, in any area. I wouldn't be suprised if there are a few places holding out though.

Not that any of that has much to do with logic.

I remain unconvinced that Chinese people are more or less capable of logical thought than anyone else, and I have never seen a situation where a Chinese person's behaviour appears illogical IF you consider the motivations and constraints they operate under. For cultural reasons those motivations and constraints can be difficult to identify sometimes, but they've always been there when I've thought about it. I think the cries of 'it's all so illogical' are not due to a lack of logic on the part of the Chinese, but of a lack of understanding of the situation on the part of the observer.

Roddy